I guess people want a .40 now......

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by lionking, Mar 21, 2021.

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  1. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    You’re probably gonna find this hard to believe but, I’m kinda used to not being “one of the cool kids.” :cool:
     
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  2. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    For years a person that kept a sidearm or two in .40 S&W could usually find ammo for it in times of shortage due to relatively low demand. But now stuff's sold out down to .38/40 Winchester!:rofl:
     
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  3. upptick

    upptick Member

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    The ballistics tables bear out your assertion, that some cartridges are more powerful than others. Data compiled from actual shootings, however, support the notion that the performance of the standard defensive calibers, i.e. 380, 38, 357, 9, 40, and 45, is about the same and that the most important factor is being able to put 2-3 rounds on target.

     
  4. Catshooter

    Catshooter Member

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    .380 and .40 & .45 are about that same? Yeah, ok. Sure. I watched the vid. It's Marshal & Sanow in video form. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I believe the .40 & .45 are better at stopping a threat than .380.


    Cat
     
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  5. Garandimal

    Garandimal member

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    The .40/180 gr... just works.





    GR
     
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  6. upptick

    upptick Member

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    I agree with you, that .40 and .45 are better at stopping a threat than a .380. In fact, it's seemingly axiomatic that the more powerfuI cartridge is better at stopping a threat. That's why I was surprised by the Ellifritz data, showing that there's not a lot of difference in the real world. I think it has a lot to do with marksmanship under stress (resulting in relatively few CNS hits) and the fact that "stopping a threat" doesn't necessarily mean rendering a person incapable of continuing with his attack but merely persuading the attacker to cease and desist. Hence, a couple of shots into the body from a .380 is persuasive to most. I've also seen videos -- one from just a few weeks ago -- of a cop emptying his magazine into a crazed dude who just kept coming....
     
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  7. RoboDuck

    RoboDuck Member

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    I prefer the greater stopping power of the .40SW one the 9mm .
     
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  8. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    And yet, if you make the same argument about the .38S&W/.38 New Police/.38 Super Police/.380/200 Mk.I/.380 Rimmed, etc. loaded to old-school, solid frame, police- and/or military-issue specifications, or perhaps using one of the older Ideal/Lyman recipes, you'll get a dozen flaming posts questioning both your intelligence and heritage. :scrutiny:o_O

    The 10mm Auto was a Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC, project to develop a longer-range pistol cartridge to replace the existing shorter-range cartridge, caliber .45, ball, M1911, for the United States Marines - and just the Marines. It was meant to be used under combat conditions by an elite corps. When the FBI leadership decided on that cartridge and weapons system as their replacement for a mix of field weapons covering decades of use, they failed to take several factors into account, including Col. Cooper's intended operational mode for the weapons chambering it and the general physical condition and training level of the intended operators.

    The .40S&W was designed to replace a combat operative's weapon with a more nearly practical - but similar - cartridge and weapons system for civilian law enforcement. It's a good special operator's weapons system cartridge. Of all the civil law enforcement weapons and service cartridge combinations devised, it is hard to argue anything other than Mr. Roosevelt's favorite, the Colt's New Police .32, was truly inferior to anything in the civilian criminal's arsenal. Yes, certain infamous criminals went beyond the usual shiv or pocket pistol to employ machine guns and hand grenades - and they were pursued by special agents similarly armed. I guess it depends on what you think a neighborhood patrol or highway patrol police officer's duty is: to kill uncivil aggressors or to arrest criminal suspects. I haven't met a uniformed officer yet who though their duty was to shoot people. It's a last resort.

    And there's my point exactly: Civil law enforcement and civilian self-defense are two completely different - and at times opposing - activities. As a civilian, I have no duty to execute an arrest. I am under no obligation to protect the civil rights of my attacker. I do not need to secure any suspect for trial. I am not obligated to take prisoners or observe the conditions or the conventions of warfare. My duty is to the life, safety, well-being, and property of those who I hold dear. If the State wishes to prosecute me for defending my own life - and they have before - then I will defend my life in court as well. The State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I took a life unjustly - it is not up to me to prove I did not... sadly, these days and for some time now, the State has chosen to use it's power to destroy people who oppose it; proof that any crime has taken place is optional.

    The .40S&W is a good and effective cartridge. So is the .22 Short. They simply serve different purposes.
     
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  9. Antihero

    Antihero Member

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    The 40 is now more powerful than a 357? Really?

    Listen, I understand you like the 40 but math is math and it has no emotional content. 400ish ft lbs is 400ish ft lbs. There is no difference in the service calibers.

    And yeah, I shoot a lot, primarily big bore stuff. Service calibers all work fine it just comes down to what platform you want. This doesn't mean the 40 is terrible, just no better than anything else
     
  10. Antihero

    Antihero Member

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    For some reason I can't get the video to play at the moment but I'll watch it.

    The problem is when I say "there is no difference" what people hear is " your favorite caliber is weak.....hahahahaha"

    All 4 service calibers will serve you well for their intended purpose with the pretty paltry amount of power they have. None are heads and shoulders more powerful and all pale in comparison to other options.

    But they work fine.
     
  11. upptick

    upptick Member

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    Indeed. A civilian using a firearm in self-defense is simply trying to break contact, not pursue, close on, and apprehend an armed subject, which will likely result in a gunfight. Hence, a civilian is likely sufficiently armed with a five shot .38 snubby while a cop needs far more firepower to adequately accomplish his mission.

    And I (and probably most people in this forum) would like to hear about the circumstances of your self-defense situation and the aftermath....
     
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  12. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    Sorry, but my actual experience in real world defensive situations makes what you just wrote completely erroneous and a bit ridiculous.
     
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  13. upptick

    upptick Member

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    Oh. Do tell.
     
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  14. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    There is no reason to tell. Anyone with a modicum of common sense and exposure to YouTube can come up with a dozen scenarios of civilians in self-defense situations in which a 5-shot J-Frame is not adequate.

    One of my instances involved four Hispanic males with knives in a laundromat in Iowa in the 90's. The second with 2 Native Americans on a lonely road on a reservation in Montana, and the third was a redneck in a small town in Idaho.

    A J-Frame is only adequate for the mythical average self-defense shooting in urban America involving 1-2 assailants and distances of less than 7 yards.

    Those of us in the real world realize that not everything is textbook self-defense scenarios and many of us have been in those scenarios. I carry a 12-shot semi-auto capable of 2" accuracy at 25 yards. That is based on reality and not averages.
     
  15. Catshooter

    Catshooter Member

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    Exactly Trey, exactly. I have been in very similar situations down the decades. In my experiences, and my education a J-frame can be a fine back-up. It really shines when you don't even have to fire it to get the bad guy to change his mind. But I want something that hits harder. My two Es (experiences/education) has shown me that a high velocity bullet (like a 9) can break bones, but it only does so because of that velocity. When that falls too low it gets deflected/stops. I want heavy & large, a bullet that really wants to keep going.


    Cat
     
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  16. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    Curious... exactly what did the ethnicity of the men in your scenarios have to do with the story? For that matter what did the reservation have to do with it? Nothing.
     
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  17. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    Rather than respond to the quasi Dirty Harry's and Geronimo George's who seem to think vigilantism and civil policing are one in the same, let's just say the .40S&W seems to be seeing an uptick in popularity, as is the .32S&W Long and, judging by ammo sales and GoneBroker prices, the .25ACP. For myself, anyone who thinks a sharp stick and harsh words are a better weapon than a .25ACP... you may be right and that's fine for you. It's not up to me to tell anyone who to be or how to live. Disagree? Tough.

    Be well and best of luck.
     
  18. Garandimal

    Garandimal member

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    Stop the Threat.

    There, that wasn't so difficult now, was it.

    Stop the Threat.

    ...as quickly as possible.

    Because the longer the Threat exists, the greater chance it will do harm.

    F-'em.




    GR
     
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  19. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    Edited in order to play nice...
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  20. Catshooter

    Catshooter Member

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    Trey,

    Because Political Correctness is the new and best religion! He's probably also a member of the The Nine is Fine Church, and so by painting you as the worst possible thing in the universe today he can invalidate your whole post.

    It's so cool, he makes the assumption that you're racist. Never gives thought to maybe you're a cop/ex-cop who are trained hard in the importance of a full an accurate description that you automatically put that data in. Or maybe even you had a parent that was and you grew up hearing that as normal with no bad connotation in your mind. Or some other answer other than "Racist!" He didn't like that your real world education and experience might could trump his internet wisdom.


    Cat
     
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  21. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    Not at all, but it really does not have a damn thing to do with the story, and it shows ignorance on your part on my motive for challenging his meaningless description. I made no assumptions, YOU did, of me.
     
  22. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    Second thoughts Cat. I look at a join date and the number of contributions and yours and mine are similar. I see yours being a long time member with as many posts as you have as being a deliberate type who chooses his contributions to the board AND his words carefully unlike many who say something just to say something.

    Your attack on me was really a surprise, I guess we both misjudged each other.
     
  23. Catshooter

    Catshooter Member

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    Trey and I aren't friends, don't know the man. However he posts here and elsewhere, I've read a lot of what he has to say and respect the man. His post # 114 is practically of mirror of some of my experiences, so I jumped in to defend it because of that and that I knew Trey wouldn't defend himself, as he didn't in his post # 119.

    Usually I just shake my head and scroll on by this sort of thing. I know the vast majority haven't been in gunfights and/or seen the results thereof and it affects their decisions & judgements, of course. How could it not? No criticism intended. But I felt that post # 116 was an attempt to shame the man into shutting up: I wasn't going to let that stand. If I was incorrect I apologize.


    Cat
     
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  24. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    I notice race because it aids in identification of people. Did it add to the validity of the story? Depends on if you are from Marshalltown, IA and know that there is a serious crime problem there due to illegals coming to work in the meat packing plant. Marshalltown had at the time I lived there, a rash of assaults and rapes committed by Hispanic young males. Saying there were four white kids hanging out is different than four Hispanic males in the context of that area.

    In regards to the other incident in Montana, near the South Dakota border, mentioning that it was on the Rez is absolutely germane to the situation. That is, if you were familiar with the abject poverty and crime rates on reservations and incidents where people tend to disappear in the middle of nowhere.

    Or, you could be right and I am just a racist. Would be quite the surprise to my Hispanic girlfriend, however.
     
  25. Catshooter

    Catshooter Member

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    :) I know what you mean. Years ago, twice, I worked hard to get two guys into our apprenticeship program. Quite difficult entry hurdles to overcome, especially without some help. Both guys were black, I'm white. But I exercised my White Privilege hard for 'em. Worked too, they both got in and stayed in.


    Cat
     
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