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I hate being right about NOLA

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Cosmoline, Jan 6, 2006.

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  1. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    But I told you so

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=155177

    And from the news today:

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/3569952.html

    NEW ORLEANS — The city says 5,500 buildings may need to be torn down because hurricane-related damage has made them unsafe, but many black residents worried that their homes will be demolished without their consent.
    ---

    The lesson--NEVER LET THEM FORCE YOU OUT. Because they sure aren't doing it for your health. Once you're out, you're out. You can protest on the edge, you can sue, you can scream and yell. But unless you are in your house you can forget about saving it.
     
  2. seansean

    seansean Member

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    does it seem so crazy now, that this was the plan of some people behind the scenes all along? Katrina created a perfect cover for a land grab. Move the people out, scatter them to the 4 winds and never let them back in. That's exactly what's happening.
     
  3. shermacman

    shermacman Member

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    Uh, dude, do you care to elaborate on this? I am adjusting my tinfoil hat in anticipation...
     
  4. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I don't think anyone blew the levee, but what they DID do was shunt the poor to the lowest lying areas of the town and neglect to improve the flood controls there. Nature then took her course, and now the government gets to do what it could NEVER have done before Katrina--kick out the unwanted from the bad parts of town and bulldoze their homes.

    Certainly, the powers that be in New Orleans had a plan from early on in the relief efforts to force everyone out at gunpoint. The intensity of these plans always bugged me. It was like shooting someone in the forehead to cure a headache. But it all makes sense if you realize you're dealing with one of the most deeply corrupt and cynical municipal governments in the US. These are very bad men. The plan all along has been to clear out the 9th ward and other low-income areas at gunpoint and send in the bulldozers, destroying the homes before anyone can stop them and without having to pay a dime in compensation. All the while Nagin is begging for more federal money in DC.
     
  5. Camp David

    Camp David member

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    Cosmoline: I noted a few issues in your last post....

    You better check the housing deeds on most of the single-family homes in the lower 9th Ward... most of them are (were) rentals!!! These were being rented by low income folks on welfare. CNN had a big story on this a few weeks back...Although some homes were outright owned, most were rentals and tenets left, leaving owner holding the bag...As far as "shunt the poor to the lowest lying areas" please provide evidence... folks on welfare live in city's poorest area... if they wish to move uptown they are free to do so, but they need to work hard to do so...There were no chains holding anyone in 9th Ward!

    I support your general rant about evicting homeowners; but what is city to do? If these homes are empty, they should be bulldozed. Remaining homes (those with people still living in them) should be purchased by city, then bulldozed....Do you have any idea how bad this area smells with rotting homes block after block...rodents and insects....

    The 9th Ward needs to be raised in elevation somehow... but as it stands now entire area is a hazard... it should be bulldozed...legal owners should be compensated... but it is a blight to leave as is....
     
  6. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The city is to respect ownership rights. If the properties are damaged, the owners can either get insurance to pay for the repairs or repair them themselves. If the city wants to condemn a property, it must sue that property specifically by lot and block number, serve notice on the owner and PROVE IN COURT that its continued existence poses a threat to the public health. Or the city can exercise emminent domain and force all the owners to sell their property to it. The governmnet does have that power. What it CANNOT DO to do is send in the bulldozers without any due process or payment to the owners and just level everything.

    THE CITY IS NOT THE PROPERTY OWNER--THE CITY CANNOT EVICT HOMEOWNERS! The very notion of the state "evicting" you from your own home and bulldozing it without buying your property through forced sale or proving your specific house poses a threat to life and limb of others is abhorent to the most basic notion of property rights and in direct violation of the 5th Amendment! IT IS THE ACTION OF A TYRANT WHO DOES NOT GIVE A WETSLAP ABOUT PROPERTY RIGHTS OR CIVIL RIGHTS.

    There is NO EXCUSE for what the city of New Orleans is trying to do. They are rank, corrupt and vile animals--wellfare scam artists on a scale no 9th ward crack head could even begin to match. They need to be beaten down and kicked out of office--and I sincerely hope the feds don't give them a dime to play with. Ray Nagin should be kicked in the teeth and dumped in the Gulf.
     
  7. Camp David

    Camp David member

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    Now you are just ignoring reality!!!

    If? The entire area was buried for weeks by flood! If? Did you not see the pictures? If? C'mon....

    Do you know how long this would take? We are talking decades here with normal legal schedule...

    I recommend it do just this, right now, and get it done.

    Too late... the Feds already committed $billions to New Orleans...

    I agree with you on this, but for different reasons.
     
  8. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Well you hit the nail on the head--eminent domain powers were given to the state for just this sort of problem. If the government feels it would take to long to sue each property in rem try to condemn it for public health reasons, the government has the power to BUY the land. Which is exactly what it should do here if it wants the property. What it cannot do is just send in the bulldozers on its own authority with no due process. That's the time to camp out on your roof with lawyers, guns and money.

    I do find it ironic, though perhaps not surprising, that the same militia types who rushed in to prevent exercise of eminent domain around an airport have been silent when it comes to defending property rights in the 9th ward.
     
  9. seansean

    seansean Member

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    really...I didn't say anything about a govt. conspiracy or explosives on the levee did I? My point is simply that some developers, and politicians in NOLA are using katrina to do what they've wanted to do for a long time anyway, get the poor people out of the way and make some money. That's all I'm saying.
     
  10. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Who needs explosives when nature gives you a Class V. Everyone saw this disaster coming. Everyone knew what would happen. They just decided the benefits of the flood (clearing out the poor neighborhoods) would outweigh the short term costs.
     
  11. Camp David

    Camp David member

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    This may be your opinion but you have no facts to back it up...high price housing in New Orleans was also damaged... how do you explain that?

    Or, asked another way, I don't suppose it ever occurred to you to blame the Force 3 Hurricane for the damge in New Orleans and blame a large majority of ignorant residents for tearing up the city with looting and blame the police for being AWOL???

    You actually believe they wanted the levees to fail?

    How about this: Most of New Orleans should never have been built since most of it is in a flood plain zone and it is illegal to rebuild in a flood plain zone (yup...check the zoning laws)!!!!
     
  12. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "now the government gets to do what it could NEVER have done before Katrina"

    Oh, I don't know about that, maybe they just weren't organized enough to get the job done. The City of Richmond bulldozed Fulton Bottom and other areas years ago. There's still nothing in Fulton Bottom. Now the new mayor, ex-Gov. Wilder, is talking about tearing down the projects that are scattered around town. Maybe he'll move them back to their bulldozed old neighborhoods. Time marches on and nothing much changes - around here anyway.

    Well, the recently ousted ex-second-in-command at the city jail has just been reported to have been working 30 hours a week for the past year or three doing part-time security for the city at time-and-a-half = $60 an hour. I love the government.

    John
     
  13. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    There's nothing new about what's going to happen to these houses in New Orleans. Many of the flodded houses are a public health risk, and will only worsen if they aren't repaired or torn down. The mess needs to be cleaned up.

    Property owners are obligated to maintain their properties such that they don't threaten their neighbors or their community. Hurricanes suck, but they don't relieve owners of this obligation. If you can't (or won't) begin to cleanup and repair your property, then the community is within its authority to do it for you.

    You may not like this, and I can certainly understand your complaints. But it's not at all unexpected or unreasonable. There's no great conspiracy here. It's the way these things work.
     
  14. DonP

    DonP Member

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    Local corruption

    IIRC, the local officials (state and local) blew off the Corps of Engineers recommendation to improve the levee systems to handle a Class 4 storm and channeled the Federal levee money off to other local pork barrel construction projects. (I believe Senator Landrieu's brothers own a major construction and paving company?) I'm from Chicago so I'm naturally suspicious I guess.

    I think what happened is that the "elite's" decided to roll the dice and hope that nothing bigger than a class 3 ever hit the city ... and the poor folks lost.

    Nobody "blew the levees" (in spite of Farrakhan's ranting) or engineered the flooding of the 9th ward, except by omission. The recent eminent domain decisions will make it easier to do urban renewal now. My bet is that a lot of very upscale high rises will go in now.

    Just my best guess.
     
  15. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    Kinda dumb to build anything below sea level when it is almost surrounded by water:cuss:
    Kinda against the law to fill in floodplains or wetlands(NOLA is wetlands). So wet that they have many pumps running trying to keep it dry:what:
    Bulldoze the levies and let the water seek it's own level. Soon Nature will take over and clean up the land as well as re-build the barrier islands and marsh.
     
  16. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    How many high-priced houses is the city planning on tearing down without process or payment?

    Everyone knew they were going to. THey've known for decades. So either they were just lazy, or they didn't care enough to prevent it.

    You're arguing on behalf of what may be the most corrupt, degenerate and downright evil city government the nation has never known. New Orleans government makes a cesspool look clean. Their cops are dirty, their polticians are dirty, and anyone with any power there is dirty.

    The city certainly has the option of doing nothing and just letting the bulk of the place return to being a bayou. They have no legal obligation to stop the waters. But instead, they're planning on grabbing the land and using federal money to build some shiny new boondoggle on it. Every contractor in the city will make out like bandits, and when it floods again in ten years they'll make out like bandits again. Just you watch! It's your money, and they're going to have a big old crawdad roast with it.
     
  17. mountainclmbr

    mountainclmbr Member

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    The quest to conrol all means of production and own all property is never lost on the left. The word is "totalitarian control freak". Oppressive taxes and expansion of laws is just a means to an ends.
     
  18. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    Do you have any evidence that homes will be taken without compensation?

    Do you have any evidence that homes are being destroyed expressly for the purposes of building a "shiny new boondoggle"?

    So far, all I see are some public officials who don't want the mess to fester any more than it already has. Cities have long held the authority to clean up or demolish structures which are in such poor condition that they threaten the community.

    The fact that there are thousands of degenerate buildings in New Orleans that need to come down shouldn't surprise anyone. The fact that the city wants to clean them up also shouldn't surprise anyone.

    The New Orleans city government is obviously incompetent. But I don't see any evidence to support charges of corruption. Would you please fill in the missing pieces that support your argument?
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Nagin is the one who decided he could kick people out of their homes by force of arms with no due process. Now he's declared he can bulldoze the same homes if HE decides they pose a danger to the public health. Read the newspaper articles about it. That's what folks are protesting, and rightly so.

    We're talking about a city where most of the cops just left town when the trouble started, and the ones who remained engaged in extensive looting and criminal behavior. They do not deserve any power, let alone the power to rip down homes without process.
     
  20. carebear

    carebear Member

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    Actually the wealthy owner-occupants are the most likely to have maintained flood insurance (or other specialty coverage) and thus be able to afford to remediate or tear down/rebuild their own properties. Also, money means political influence, so the city has no need or ability to step in on any pretext.

    Those who chose to pinch pennies (or didn't have them to pinch) and owned properties (resident or non-) that are now flood damaged are probably better off abandoning them versus trying to restore them to code, especially give the new "mold can kill you" litigation heaven.

    If they abandon them and they are mortgaged, the bank owns them and can do what it wants. That means an auction or, more likely given the lack of investors and cost of making them even remotely a decent investment, turning ownership over to the taxing authority. If they are owned free and clear but the city taxes go into arrears and nothing is done to get a legal exemption, then the city can lien and foreclose on them. If the owners just write them off and walk away or die intestate then the city gets them anyway.

    Either way, there's far more to be done to fix flooded homes than replace some wall board and repaint. Trying to get money to do it is now such high-risk (since the repair cost could probably only be covered by liening the property itself) the rates must be obscene. As a lender, I'm not giving you basically the rebuilding cost of a property that may end up condemned and/or at the same risk again with only that property to secure it.

    Bottom line, it sucks to be poor. At a glance, there's very little in the way of conspiracy here, just economics. If you are poor, you get to live is crappier areas with poorer services. When trouble comes, you get screwed because you have fewer resources to prepare for it or to deal with it when it happens. Also, often you lack the knowledge and life experience to even realize such things need preparing for, even had you the means. Hereditary poverty has a massive sweep of consequences.
     
  21. strambo

    strambo Member

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    I was there in the 9th Ward. The houses that were flooded are a complete and total loss and an environmental nightmare. That water was the most horrid sludge I have ever seen. A rescue dog died after 20 mins exposure to it.

    NO is horrendously corrupt. I don't know what the answer is...all I know is that the flooded houses DO need to be bulldozed regardless of who owned them. As far as what to do after and compensation? Mother Nature can be pretty unforgiving of cities built by silly men in river deltas below sea level.:uhoh:
     
  22. PCGS65

    PCGS65 Member

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    Cosmoline, The city can use eminent domain as you mentioned,condeming is another and here's a third. City will say your property is worth $10 and hand them a check because after we tally the cost of cleanup you will owe us.
    They can and will do what they want as you know. We will find out soon which option they choose.:fire:
     
  23. poe_9999

    poe_9999 Member

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    Legal owners will be billed by the city for clean up fees.
     
  24. Byron Quick

    Byron Quick Moderator In Memoriam

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    The good people of Memphis, Tennessee are living within the area that experienced the most powerful earthquake that ever took place in America. The zone is quite active today with small quakes. The city, state, and federal governments are aware of the problem. The building codes don't reflect that knowledge.

    The people of Memphis are also aware of this by and large. The people who live there are NOT-mostly-building to earthquake codes. Remember the saying: "Never attribute to malice what can be accounted for by stupidity?" New Orleans, San Francisco, Port Royal, Lisbon, Pompeii, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Sri Lanka...people who are born and raised in areas prone to natural disaster gamble with their lives. Often they lose. Simple fact of history that has happened over and over in every century under every known type of government.

    Some of those houses in the 9th Ward are piles of rubble lying in the street or over against the neighboring lot's pile of rubble. Cosmoline, you honestly think that the taxpayers of this nation should pay to compensate these people? Can you wrap your mind around these concepts: unihabitable, unrepairable, health hazard, and public nuisance?

    Land grabs? Sure:rolleyes: "Hey, I've got a good deal for you...bottom land."

    I feel sorry for property owners in New Orleans. They, even the owners of the 'best' plots in the city, own worthless real estate as far as I'm concerned. You couldn't give it to me if I would then have to pay property taxes on it.

    Folks, I check the weather forecasts rather thoroughly when I'm going to be driving through on I-10. I did before Katrina. Anyone with ordinary prudence knew that the city was a death trap. Give you a clue-it still is.

    As they should be if they are so irresponsible as to not clean up their own property. The city government should also coutnersue the property owners who have sued to prevent the cleanup for the city's legal fees.
     
  25. saltydog

    saltydog Member

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    Thats a good post. We need to remember there are alot of dumb ass Americans buying property like that and alot of smart Land and Housing Developers reaping huge profits from dumb people. Look at people in ********** paying for property on Major Fault lines. God, I love a free economy!:D
     
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