I have some doubters about the 1500 FPS 9mm +P+

[MachIVshooter]

Too hot.

Sure, you can push a 9mm to those levels-for awhile. You can also juice a Honda 1.6l and make 600 HP. But unlike the 600 HP LSX V8, that little 4 banger is gonna disassemble itself violently from the stress it was not designed to handle. It might take a little while, but it will happen. Same thing with hot rodding guns.

If I want 550-600 FPE in a hi cap autoloader, I'll do it with very moderate 10mm loads, not a 9x19 that (I'm pretty sure) is running well over the 35k PSI max.

That said, if you guys wanna hammer your guns and risk your body parts, go right ahead.

 

[intercooler]

I didn't buy this one box of ammo to shoot 1500+. It was rated 1400 and so I gave it a whirl to see how close it was (is 1400 safe?). Maybe someone else gets 1400? The box is long gone, the 9mm is my Fiance's and won't ever see a box of +P+ again. It was still a hoot to shoot ONCE.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Certain Deaf...I sincerely hope that the guy who bought your pistol discovers what that crack means before he hurts himself.

I understand. Hand wringing is not against the law so knock yourself right out. As said before, the buyer did know and was much my senior for whatever that's worth to you. This was right around thirty years ago. The pistol served me quite well.

 

[Walkalong]

It is irresponsible to run machinery beyond its limits for a long time, and then sell it to someone who may know it has what looks like minimal damage, but not how it got there, or what it means.

Guns, cars, you name it.

 

[rswartsell]

Uhh.. so then, It's cool to run high pressure ammo if it's someone else's gun or at least you then sell it off.

Guys, what do you run in YOUR guns or your KEEPERS?

 

[1911Tuner]

Over the years, I've seen some pretty silly behavior in the pursuit of velocity. From people complaining to the ammunition manufacturers because their .357 125 JHP "only" produced 1400 fps instead of the magical 1450 as advertised...and they arrived at those numbers by testing it over a 90-dollar Shooting Chrony. *cough*

They've complained or even returned revolvers because the velocities advertised by the ammo companies were 75 or 80 fps lower than expected.

I've known handloaders to do some even sillier things...determined to achieve higher and higher velocities...and often damaging expensive handguns in the bargain, and then angrily demanding replacement under warranty.

I have to ask: "Why?" To what end? Above a certain level, more velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory. There is precious little terminal effect to be gained over an additional 50-100 fps. If we assume that the .357/125 and other cartridge/gun combos...like the 9mm/115 have a self-defense niche, and that the average SD shooting takes place at less than 25 yards...with the preponderance occurring at 10-20 feet...How flat does the trajectory need to be?

There is also the matter of the bullet's construction itself. Expanding bullets are designed for optimum performance within a fairly narrow velocity window. Too low, and they don't expand reliably. Too high, and they expand so violently that they may not penetrate to the vitals...or actually blow up in the first 3-4 inches. It's counterproductive. There's a reason that the .357/110 grain JHP isn't loaded to screaming velocities by the commercial manufacturers.

I can understand the need for a flatter trajectory and more downrange energy/momentum for hunting purposes when the ranges can exceed 75 yards...but for close-range self defense? Please.

 

[Boge]

I've shot some of the Underwood 9mm 124 gr. +p+ using the Gold Dot bullet. VERY accurate and same recoil impulse as with the factory Speer 124 gr. +p.


I understand some people's concern about this. However, many state & Federal agencies used +p+ for years. The Secret Service even issued the Speer 115 gr. +p+ Gold Dot for awhile and I never heard of any gun blowing up.

Remember, a jet is stressed very much every time it goes to altitude and we don't hear of them raining out of the skies every day. A former Capt. in the IL State Police during the time they issued the Federal BPLE & Win. Ranger +p+ said one of the officers there shot over 50,000 + rds. of 9mm +p+ though his 3rd Gen. S&W and it was still running the last he knew.

I've seen a photo of the Underwood 124 gr. +p+ dismantled & the charge weighed 6.6 gr. No idea what powder. Maybe a special blend from a mill.

Besides, these are MODERN guns 1911Tuner, not flintlocks like a 1911!!

 

[intercooler]

I don't know anything about 9mm powder charge but is 6.6 gr's very much? I have seen claims of 1350 FPS for those but no video. Where is that picture located?

 

[1911Tuner]

Boge...Do straw man a lot, or just this one?

If you'll go back and read what I've written, you'll see that I haven't been overly concerned with +P or even +P+ ammunition, even thought that does exceed the pressures and forces that the SAAMI established for the cartridge and for the guns that the manufacturers proof them for..

My concerns centered around Certaindeaf's "50,000 rounds of proof-level" ammunition...which I have my doubts about, but that's neither here nor there.

My concerns were...and remain...with handloading ammunition ever hotter in the search for turning the cartridge into something that it's not, and was never meant to be. i.e trying to equal .357 Magnum performance with a 9mm Parabellum or trying to equal .44 Magnum performance with the .45 Colt without firing it in a gun that is specifically designed to withstand the pressures and forces generated by that class of ammunition.

And my point and my questions were...and are..."To what end? What do you hope to accomplish by striving for ever higher velocities? What advantage is gained with an additional 50 fps...with a gun and caliber that by definition will likely be used at 10-20 feet?" Shot to shot velocities within the same lot can vary 40 fps.

Will that magically turn a marginal cartridge into the Hammer of Thor?

So, it raises a final question. "What is the point, other than to be able to say that it was done?"

Another unknown is the accuracy of the chronograph itself. I've learned that chronographs are notorious liars, and will show a different velocity on Monday than the one it showed on Saturday...sometimes dramatically different.

So it comes back to my earlier observations.

To wit:

"The pressures required to accelerate a 115-grain bullet to 1500 fps in 4 inches of rifled barrel are more than sufficient to blow your eyes through the back of your head."

What is the point?

 

[1911Tuner]

Hand wringing is not against the law so knock yourself right out.

Oh, I'm not the hand-wringin' type, Deaf. I've done foolish things with handloads my ownself. I learned the error of my ways before I did any serious damage. Mostly I'm hopin' that I can keep some young newcomer to the "Roll Your Own" fraternity from following your lead.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Well heck!

 

[Boge]

1911Tuner, you of all people should know that there are tons of IPSC shooters who load the 9mm & .38 Super to the nth degree to make Major. This is nothing new. Sure, on a 1911 it beats the frame to death just as it would if I put a hemi in a 1911 Stutz Bearcat. I have seen several people blow up guns but it was almost always due to faulty reloads, i.e., someone not paying attention while reloading and not max loads.


People have a choice here. No one is putting a gun to their head to force them to buy Underwood Ammo. If it blows that's what lawyers and liability insurance is for. In your opinion you think it is foolish and that's OK. However, one still has the right to be foolish in the USA.

 

[rswartsell]

"No one is putting a gun to their head to force them to buy Underwood Ammo. If it blows that's what lawyers and liability insurance is for."

And prosthesis, and glass eyes, and life insurance too Boge. I'm a little surprised, are you the Boge from Gunblast?

I'm not specifically cutting the knees of Underwood, I have no experience to base an opinion on. Simply the reckless quest for ultra high velocity.

 

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner, you of all people should know that there are tons of IPSC shooters who load the 9mm & .38 Super to the nth degree to make Major.

I do, and I've seen'em break guns. The overloaded .38 Super was instgrumental in ushering in the ramped barrels because they were blowing case heads while-u-wait. None of those loads are proof-level, though...and ONE MORE TIME...that was why I got involved here.

A few years back, a guy had spent megabucks for an Ed Brown pistol. He was having a few issues with it, and he called Ed on the phone. The question of ammo came up, as usual. Told Ed that it was 200-grain Hornady XTPs loaded to 950 fps.

Ed's response:

"Whoa, man! You're gonna break my gun!"

That's a true story.

Also one more time...

Whenever I or any of the other mods see a post that advises or advocates illegal actions or irresponsible handloading data...we have to refute it. If we let it stand, and somebody runs in the ditch, the forum can be held liable. Many times we simply delete it. That's probably what I should have done, but since no actual data was given for the claimed proof level ammunition...I pointed out the folly of over stressing the guns and stated my reasons.

 

[Certaindeaf]

You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Moderation (loading and posting)

You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.

Certaindeaf, pardon me for jumping in here, but I feel compelled to comment.

Your comment seems to me to be uncalled for.

What I have read in 1911Tuner's posts is; If an experienced handloader wants to push the limits of brass, steel and lead, that is his choice. If a novice reads of those practices and tries to do the same without the background experience, tragic results could follow.

1911Tuner is moderating (in the sense that a neutron moderator slows a nuclear reaction). That is one of his duties.

Certainly, 1911Tuner's last post is not deserving of snark.

Thank you for reading.

Lost Sheep

 

[Coal Dragger]

Lessons learned in this thread:

1.) Stressing brass and guns to pressures beyond intended design limits on a regular intentional basis is stupid.

2.) Some shooters/reloaders feel that lesson #1 doesn't apply to them, and should be avoided at the range.

3.) Never buy a gun from Certaindeaf, it has most likely been abused.

 

[ljnowell]

You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.

That post sure says a lot about your character. This website is ran on polite conversation, manners, and good ethics. I dont think I have seen you bring any of those three to this thread. Disappointing.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.

Not very High Road IMO and not called for. If I were a Mod you would be taking a time out for a few days at least.

 

[1911Tuner]

I noticed that Certaindeaf gives contradictory advice on this in a cast rifle bullet reloading question. Very good advice, I might add. I can't figure why he feels that a bolt-action rifle...which is far more capable of absorbing excessive pressure and the stresses caused by it...but the cautions can be ignored with a Browning High Power, which is a fine pistol, but it's not an exceptionally strong pistol.

Here is the post in its entirety.

If you do it right, you can drive a GC'd lead slug to around 2800 and paper patched to around 3300 accurately. I think you'd certainly blow a .308 up trying to drive a 200+gr slug to those velocities so of course you'd have to use a lighter bullet to achieve those speeds.

So, it's apparent that he understands the issue and the risks involved. I'm starting to think that he just likes to argue.

 

[bikerdoc]

Rule #4 from the THR Code of Conduct

4. Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Is Tuner the only one aware of this?

 

[Hangingrock]

This topic makes me think of Elmer Keith’s experimentation resulting in fracturing single action Colts in his quest for enhanced performance. I wonder how many top strap re-welds were done before moving on to Smith&Wesson revolvers of the period.

Then we have the Speer Number (?) 8 (?) manual with its energetic loads of SR4756 that some swear by and others swear at.

I do recall when S&W introduced the M640 With serial number prefix CEN**** in the frame window for the cylinder “TESTED FOR +P+” wording was inscribed. Follow on production this inscription was deleted because there was no standard for +P+.

With out pressure firearms would not function thus pressure is not a bad thing but we can have too much of a good thing which Elmer Keith and lesser known individuals have found out .

 

[1911Tuner]

With out pressure firearms would not function thus pressure is not a bad thing but we can have too much of a good thing which Elmer Keith and lesser known individuals have found out .

True that, but as I've tried to point out for years...and this is the part that so many struggle to understand...pressure isn't the only concern. It may not even be the main concern. The recoil forces and the tensile stresses are what ultimately ruins guns in most instances. Of course, there's the occasional double or triple charge that that actually blow the chamber...but these are fairly rare compared to the other one.

I saw a double charge of Bullseye fired in a 1911...after the fact...in which the gun stayed together, but cracked the slide on both sides of the port. The slide was ruined. The shooter got lucky. He didn't ignore the gases and powder particles that stung his face, and investigated...noticed the cracks...and stopped firing. He brought the gun straight to me from the range. If he'd have pulled the trigger again...well...he got lucky.

When a top strap stretches...or worst case scenario...fractures, the gun literally "opens up" and lets the case back out of the chamber and lose head support. If it's a matter of excessive headspace, the blow isn't normally catastrophic except with pressures over 45,000 psi. If the topstrap or the slide actually gives way suddenly, it can get pretty ugly in quick time.

Tensile stresses are cumulative in their effect. Not only in the amount of stretching that the top strap or the slide incur...but in work-hardening and loss of tensile strength and the resulting lowered yield point of the steel. You may get away with it for a thousand rounds, and have the gun come unwrapped at number 1001. Sometimes the warnings are subtle. Sometimes they're not. The cracked slide on the subject Browning High Power was a clear warning that things were fixin' to go to hell in a handbasket. With a revolver, the warning is excessive endshake. The frame has stretched, and the headspace is compromised. Don't ignore these things. You can't regrow eyes and fingers.

 

[Prosser]

In defense of the high velocity desire:

S&M pushed that stuff for a long time. Isn't the 125 at 1400 fps the ultimate man stopper, better then a .308 rifle? :banghead:

The concept that the last 20% in velocity is achieved at a cost of excessive
recoil and excessive wear on a pistol is certainly a VERY valid position.

My last batches of ammunition were loaded on the bottom of the reloading scale for calibers. Problem is the bottom end of the scale is not always the best for consistent velocity, which means accuracy suffers.

Finding a load that is consistent in velocity and ignition usually requries a full, or near full case, which also stops you from double charging. It also leaves out most of the faster powders. Quick spikes to high pressure are not particularly good for firearms, either. The faster the powder, the closer it is to a true explosion. That can't be good for metal, over a long repeated period of time.

My brief list of experiences with maximum loads:
Detonics Mark VI and VII
These guns, with extra strong springs, shot .451 Detonics level loads, 200 grains @ 1200 fps, every other day, for two hours, for 5 years, and that's conservative, no damage.

230 grain hardball out of a Linebaugh 6 shot Seville, full case of H110, 45 Colt. The Linebaugh was so overbuilt that with that slow a powder excessive pressure was not an issue. If you upped the bullet weight, then
you could create excessive pressure, but not with light bullets.

Sig Sauer P 226:

I couldn't get the gun to cycle with 115 grain bullets, and over maximum charges. I had to move to 130 grain bullets and maximum, or over maximum charges to get the gun to cycle. This was in the 80's, so I might have the number wrong on the Sig Sauer.

I wonder if the new Sigs are as strongly built, with such stiff springs?

Depending on the gun, and how tight the chamber is cut, SOME guns might be safe for such long term use of such heavy loads.

What I did find was a bit of .45 ACP brass was stretched beyond recovery by being shot in guns with sloppy chambers(at my range that was LEO who used Glocks). I'm sure the same is true with 9mm.

Finally a 240 grain HP in .44 Special in a Charter Arms bulldog. Loads in the low .44 Magnum range: slightly under 1200 fps.

Gun shot loose and froze. Too much for the little bulldog.

It's hard to say that the ballistics in 9mm are truly excessive when the .357 Sig, in the right gun, loads to such pressures.

The problem is finding the right gun.

While all I can do is guess at this point, I do wonder if the Sig Sauer P226 X Six or five can stand up to this kind of pressure for a long period of time?

The problem with light bullets at such velocities is they require a fast burning powder in a normal length barrel, or a slower burning powder in a long barrel.

I don't see much point in going past 32k psi CUP in automatics, or 50K in a revolver, and it has to be the right revolver.

Still, the Magnum Research autos in .357 and .44 Magnum work.
So did Lee Jurras' autos in heavy calibers.
Tight chambers, strong brass, and proper design and it can be done.

Don't the submachine loads go near this kind of pressure, but with heavier bullets.

 

[EddieNFL]

...there are tons of IPSC shooters who load the 9mm & .38 Super to the nth degree to make Major. This is nothing new.

Stupid has been around a while, too.