I love the smell of sulphur in the morning....
- Thread starter ClemBert
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Tommygunn
Member
KA-BOOOOM!
midland man
Member
nice I need to order a big batch like that
Navy Six 2
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Wait a minute, is that my order?!? As I sit here typing this I am waiting for the Fed Ex truck to deliver my case of Goex. They notified me that it would be delivered today and a signature is required.
TheOutlawKid
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Although I make my own powder...I still love seeing a big batch of purchased powder. Something about seeing all them containers gathered together all nice and neat In one pound increments makes happy.
midland man
Member
if I may ask where did you order it from and how much total?? thanks!
midland man
Member
thanks clembert I never have ordered 25lbs before so that's why I asked about costs? wasn't tryin to be nosey just was wondering about something like that?
I don't think it's an invasive questions at all. After all, most of us come here to get answers to our many questions, seek advice, find bargains etc. It always amazes me how so many people on here try to "keep it a secret" rather than open about costs and sources. What's the big deal fellas, embarrassed about what you paid? Keep your info secret in fear that someone else will get a bargain? Or that they may "get one too". So silly...let's try to be open, honest and help each other out.
That's the way I order it so the hazmat fee isn't such a hit. When I load my old SxS shotguns with smoke I only get 70 shots from a pound of powder. When ya shoot 100 to 150 shots in a day it doesn't take long to go through some powder. One year I was shooting at the Southern in NC and loaded a couple up a little heavy - 95grs of 2f/1oz of shot. We were shooting 5-stand and it was neat watching the crowd gather. They loved the smoke - not the other shooters, but the crowd. The other four competitors complained about not being able to shoot because of the smoke. I offered them a box of smoke, but everyone always declines. They think it's going to hurt their guns. DAH. Do you think guns made in the 1800's might have been used with BP?
midland man
Member
that's all they had was blackpowder back in the day until 1895 when Winchester brought out the 94 win, 30-30 and it was the first smokeless powder cartridge around but before then blackpowder was the standard in the day!!
Actually 1893. In the USA we started in 1890, Here's a little history.
In 1863, Prussian artillery captain Johann F. E. Schultze patented a small-arms propellent of nitrated hardwood impregnated with saltpeter or barium nitrate. Prentice received an 1866 patent for a sporting powder of nitrated paper manufactured at Stowmarket, but ballistic uniformity suffered as the paper absorbed atmospheric moisture. In 1871, Frederick Volkmann received an Austrian patent for a colloided version of Schultze powder called Collodin, which he manufactured near Vienna for use in sporting firearms. Austrian patents were not published at the time, and the Austrian Empire considered the operation a violation of the government monopoly on explosives manufacture and closed the Volkmann factory in 1875.[4]:141–144
In 1882, the Explosives Company at Stowmarket patented an improved formulation of nitrated cotton gelatinised by ether-alcohol with nitrates of potassium and barium. These propellants were suitable for shotguns but not rifles,[8]:138–139 because rifling results in resistance to a smooth expansion of the gas, which is reduced in smoothbore shotguns.
Poudre B single-base smokeless powder flakes
In 1884, Paul Vieille invented a smokeless powder called Poudre B (short for poudre blanche—white powder, as distinguished from black powder)[6]:289–292 made from 68.2% insoluble nitrocellulose, 29.8% soluble nitrocellulose gelatinized with ether and 2% paraffin. This was adopted for the Lebel rifle.[8]:139 It was passed through rollers to form paper thin sheets, which were cut into flakes of the desired size.[6]:289–292 The resulting propellant, today known as pyrocellulose, contains somewhat less nitrogen than guncotton and is less volatile. A particularly good feature of the propellant is that it will not detonate unless it is compressed, making it very safe to handle under normal conditions.
Vieille's powder revolutionized the effectiveness of small guns because it gave off almost no smoke and was three times more powerful than black powder. Higher muzzle velocity meant a flatter trajectory and less wind drift and bullet drop, making 1,000 m (1,094 yd) shots practicable. Since less powder was needed to propel a bullet, the cartridge could be made smaller and lighter. This allowed troops to carry more ammunition for the same weight. Also, it would burn even when wet. Black powder ammunition had to be kept dry and was almost always stored and transported in watertight cartridges.
Other European countries swiftly followed and started using their own versions of Poudre B, the first being Germany and Austria, which introduced new weapons in 1888. Subsequently, Poudre B was modified several times with various compounds being added and removed. Krupp began adding diphenylamine as a stabilizer in 1888.[4]:141–144
Meanwhile, in 1887, Alfred Nobel obtained an English patent for a smokeless gunpowder he called Ballistite. In this propellant the fibrous structure of cotton (nitro-cellulose) was destroyed by a nitro-glycerine solution instead of a solvent.[8]:140 In England in 1889, a similar powder was patented by Hiram Maxim, and in the United States in 1890 by Hudson Maxim.[9] Ballistite was patented in the United States in 1891.
The Germans adopted ballistite for naval use in 1898, calling it WPC/98. The Italians adopted it as filite, in cord instead of flake form, but realising its drawbacks changed to a formulation with nitroglycerine they called solenite. In 1891 the Russians tasked the chemist Mendeleev with finding a suitable propellant, he created nitrocellulose gelatinised by ether-alcohol, which produced more nitrogen and more uniform colloidal structure than the French use of nitro-cottons in Poudre B. He called it pyrocollodion.[8]:140
Close-up of Cordite filaments in a .303 British rifle cartridge (manufactured in 1964)
Britain conducted trials on all the various types of propellant brought to their attention, but were dissatisfied with them all and sought something superior to all existing types. In 1889, Sir Frederick Abel, James Dewar and Dr W Kellner patented (Nos 5614 and 11,664 in the names of Abel and Dewar) a new formulation that was manufactured at the Royal Gunpowder Factory at Waltham Abbey. It entered British service in 1891 as Cordite Mark 1. Its main composition was 58% Nitro-glycerine, 37% Guncotton and 3% mineral jelly. A modified version, Cordite MD, entered service in 1901, with the guncotton percentage increased to 65% and nitro-glycerine reduced to 30%. This change reduced the combustion temperature and hence erosion and barrel wear. Cordite's advantages over gunpowder were reduced maximum pressure in the chamber (hence lighter breeches, etc.) but longer high pressure. Cordite could be made in any desired shape or size.[8]:141 The creation of cordite led to a lengthy court battle between Nobel, Maxim, and another inventor over alleged British patent infringement.
The Anglo-American Explosives Company began manufacturing its shotgun powder in Oakland, New Jersey in 1890. DuPont began producing guncotton at Carneys Point Township, New Jersey in 1891.[4]:146–149 Charles E. Munroe of the Naval Torpedo Station in Newport, Rhode Island patented a formulation of guncotton colloided with nitrobenzene, called Indurite, in 1891.[6]:296–297 Several United States firms began producing smokeless powder when Winchester Repeating Arms Company started loading sporting cartridges with Explosives Company powder in 1893. California Powder Works began producing a mixture of nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose with ammonium picrate as Peyton Powder, Leonard Smokeless Powder Company began producing nitroglycerine-nitrocellulose Ruby powders, Laflin & Rand negotiated a license to produce Ballistite, and DuPont started producing smokeless shotgun powder. The United States Army evaluated 25 varieties of smokeless powder and selected Ruby and Peyton Powders as the most suitable for use in the Krag-Jørgensen service rifle. Ruby was preferred, because tin-plating was required to protect brass cartridge cases from picric acid in the Peyton Powder. Rather than paying the required royalties for Ballistite, Laflin & Rand financed Leonard's reorganization as the American Smokeless Powder Company. United States Army Lieutenant Whistler assisted American Smokeless Powder Company factory superintendent Aspinwall in formulating an improved powder named W.A. for their efforts. W.A. smokeless powder was the standard for United States military service rifles from 1897 until 1908.[4]:146–149
In 1863, Prussian artillery captain Johann F. E. Schultze patented a small-arms propellent of nitrated hardwood impregnated with saltpeter or barium nitrate. Prentice received an 1866 patent for a sporting powder of nitrated paper manufactured at Stowmarket, but ballistic uniformity suffered as the paper absorbed atmospheric moisture. In 1871, Frederick Volkmann received an Austrian patent for a colloided version of Schultze powder called Collodin, which he manufactured near Vienna for use in sporting firearms. Austrian patents were not published at the time, and the Austrian Empire considered the operation a violation of the government monopoly on explosives manufacture and closed the Volkmann factory in 1875.[4]:141–144
In 1882, the Explosives Company at Stowmarket patented an improved formulation of nitrated cotton gelatinised by ether-alcohol with nitrates of potassium and barium. These propellants were suitable for shotguns but not rifles,[8]:138–139 because rifling results in resistance to a smooth expansion of the gas, which is reduced in smoothbore shotguns.
Poudre B single-base smokeless powder flakes
In 1884, Paul Vieille invented a smokeless powder called Poudre B (short for poudre blanche—white powder, as distinguished from black powder)[6]:289–292 made from 68.2% insoluble nitrocellulose, 29.8% soluble nitrocellulose gelatinized with ether and 2% paraffin. This was adopted for the Lebel rifle.[8]:139 It was passed through rollers to form paper thin sheets, which were cut into flakes of the desired size.[6]:289–292 The resulting propellant, today known as pyrocellulose, contains somewhat less nitrogen than guncotton and is less volatile. A particularly good feature of the propellant is that it will not detonate unless it is compressed, making it very safe to handle under normal conditions.
Vieille's powder revolutionized the effectiveness of small guns because it gave off almost no smoke and was three times more powerful than black powder. Higher muzzle velocity meant a flatter trajectory and less wind drift and bullet drop, making 1,000 m (1,094 yd) shots practicable. Since less powder was needed to propel a bullet, the cartridge could be made smaller and lighter. This allowed troops to carry more ammunition for the same weight. Also, it would burn even when wet. Black powder ammunition had to be kept dry and was almost always stored and transported in watertight cartridges.
Other European countries swiftly followed and started using their own versions of Poudre B, the first being Germany and Austria, which introduced new weapons in 1888. Subsequently, Poudre B was modified several times with various compounds being added and removed. Krupp began adding diphenylamine as a stabilizer in 1888.[4]:141–144
Meanwhile, in 1887, Alfred Nobel obtained an English patent for a smokeless gunpowder he called Ballistite. In this propellant the fibrous structure of cotton (nitro-cellulose) was destroyed by a nitro-glycerine solution instead of a solvent.[8]:140 In England in 1889, a similar powder was patented by Hiram Maxim, and in the United States in 1890 by Hudson Maxim.[9] Ballistite was patented in the United States in 1891.
The Germans adopted ballistite for naval use in 1898, calling it WPC/98. The Italians adopted it as filite, in cord instead of flake form, but realising its drawbacks changed to a formulation with nitroglycerine they called solenite. In 1891 the Russians tasked the chemist Mendeleev with finding a suitable propellant, he created nitrocellulose gelatinised by ether-alcohol, which produced more nitrogen and more uniform colloidal structure than the French use of nitro-cottons in Poudre B. He called it pyrocollodion.[8]:140
Close-up of Cordite filaments in a .303 British rifle cartridge (manufactured in 1964)
Britain conducted trials on all the various types of propellant brought to their attention, but were dissatisfied with them all and sought something superior to all existing types. In 1889, Sir Frederick Abel, James Dewar and Dr W Kellner patented (Nos 5614 and 11,664 in the names of Abel and Dewar) a new formulation that was manufactured at the Royal Gunpowder Factory at Waltham Abbey. It entered British service in 1891 as Cordite Mark 1. Its main composition was 58% Nitro-glycerine, 37% Guncotton and 3% mineral jelly. A modified version, Cordite MD, entered service in 1901, with the guncotton percentage increased to 65% and nitro-glycerine reduced to 30%. This change reduced the combustion temperature and hence erosion and barrel wear. Cordite's advantages over gunpowder were reduced maximum pressure in the chamber (hence lighter breeches, etc.) but longer high pressure. Cordite could be made in any desired shape or size.[8]:141 The creation of cordite led to a lengthy court battle between Nobel, Maxim, and another inventor over alleged British patent infringement.
The Anglo-American Explosives Company began manufacturing its shotgun powder in Oakland, New Jersey in 1890. DuPont began producing guncotton at Carneys Point Township, New Jersey in 1891.[4]:146–149 Charles E. Munroe of the Naval Torpedo Station in Newport, Rhode Island patented a formulation of guncotton colloided with nitrobenzene, called Indurite, in 1891.[6]:296–297 Several United States firms began producing smokeless powder when Winchester Repeating Arms Company started loading sporting cartridges with Explosives Company powder in 1893. California Powder Works began producing a mixture of nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose with ammonium picrate as Peyton Powder, Leonard Smokeless Powder Company began producing nitroglycerine-nitrocellulose Ruby powders, Laflin & Rand negotiated a license to produce Ballistite, and DuPont started producing smokeless shotgun powder. The United States Army evaluated 25 varieties of smokeless powder and selected Ruby and Peyton Powders as the most suitable for use in the Krag-Jørgensen service rifle. Ruby was preferred, because tin-plating was required to protect brass cartridge cases from picric acid in the Peyton Powder. Rather than paying the required royalties for Ballistite, Laflin & Rand financed Leonard's reorganization as the American Smokeless Powder Company. United States Army Lieutenant Whistler assisted American Smokeless Powder Company factory superintendent Aspinwall in formulating an improved powder named W.A. for their efforts. W.A. smokeless powder was the standard for United States military service rifles from 1897 until 1908.[4]:146–149
Ephraim Kibbey
Member
Thanks Paul, that was a fun romp through history. I knew some but learned a lot more!
cowboydave
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- Dec 14, 2017
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Hey, it was interesting reading.
It don't when I'm shooting a cartridge shotgun, but the other skeet shooters bitch a lot because on a still night they can't see the birds when they get up to shoot. I just tell them, " you think you're having trouble, try shooting it at doubles." At my club there's a BP venue so everyone on the rifle range is use to smoke. Not so on pistol range - still bug em down there.
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