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I may just sell my Glock 21...

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Tropical Z, Mar 14, 2004.

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  1. Tropical Z

    Tropical Z Member

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    as i dont like owning guns that MAY have "issues".This Glock kaboom issue was all well and good as long as it was the .40S&W that was involved.When i was clued in that the .45acp was just as likely to blow do to an unsupported chamber it made me put my 21 in the safe where its sat ever since.I dont reload and probably never will,but it seems to me a shame to get rid of a gun i like due to a "maybe" that might never happen.Mistakes do occur on modern fast moving assembly lines and if theres a double charged load sitting out there im sure it will find its way into my hands.Unfortunately,most of my guns would probably disintegrate under the same stress.I just worry more about that unsupported 21 chamber.Life is hard sometimes.
     
  2. Kjay

    Kjay Member

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    Well you would think that with all the Glocks out there you here a whole lot more about KaBooms and exploding pistols (you could follow the trail of trial lawyers). I don't think much of this particular "problem." Keep your 21 and enjoy.
     
  3. railroader

    railroader Member

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    The 45acp round operates at probably the lowest pressure of any round glocks shoot. If you are shooting factory ammo I wouldn't sweat it. As for double charge, you don't want to shoot those out of any handgun. Mark
     
  4. TBeck

    TBeck Member

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    It's a remote chance that it will happen. Real, but remote. Instead of taking a $200 beating on selling the gun, buy an aftermarket barrel with a fully supported chamber and keep shooting it.
     
  5. Whit

    Whit Member

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    Tropical Z,
    You said that you don't reload and probably never will. As long as you're shooting FMJ, you couldn't be any safer. As far as I'm concerned, I take the Glock KB issue, the SIG rust issue, HK firing pin issue, Beretta slide breaking your teeth issue, and whatever else with a grain of salt, sure there are some instances of them all happening, however I think alot of it is internet fokelore. i.e. a buddies, cousins, uncles, old Cell block buddy had it happen to him, kind of story. I'd keep, and enjoy, the Glock 21 as I have kept all my other ticking timebomb SIGs, HK's, Beretta's, and Glocks. Take Care. .....Whit
     
  6. GunNut

    GunNut Member

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    Yeah, I know what you mean about not being sure about your Glock 21.

    Listening to the radio yesterday, there was a report that the Portland, OR. police chief was having ALL Glock .45's turned in. They will be switching to 9mm's.

    Steve
     
  7. RatFink

    RatFink Member

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    Tom Gresham mentioned that today, he said they have had two KB's in their dept.
     
  8. jc2

    jc2 member

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    Portland Police recall Glock .45s after mishaps

    Here you go, Kjay -
    I'm like you Tropical Z--if it says Glock on the side, I just don't trust it unless its a 17.
     
  9. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Edit... never mind... :uhoh:
     
  10. HSMITH

    HSMITH Member

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    MILLIONS of rounds downrange every single year through Glocks, and there are probably as many 40's as there are 9mm's now, and we hear of a few KB's. Big deal. 1911's KB too under the same circumstances unless using a ramped barrel, so does everything else. I've seen it with my own two eyes. Want pictures? I have some brass out of a lot purchased on eBay that will illustrate very well what happens when a 1911 is pushed to hard. It isn't necessarily the fault of the gun, and to assume otherwise because of the stampings on it is asinine.

    Glock KB's such as the Portland reports are more believable since they are from a uniformed and structured source. 99% of the rest are 'my sister has a cousin that knows a guy married to her cousin that knows the guy' crap that no-one can trust.

    I submit that anything else used in the same numbers as the Glock pistols are by an equally 'non-gun type' would see a similar rate of failure. Glocks are the model T of the gun world right now and there are far more used than most of us realize. They are also more likely to be used by less-than-experts than others as well.

    I trust the Glocks in my array of guns, and don't worry about it AT ALL. If you are so nervous about it sell them to guys like me at a nice price and bail out to whatever it is that you think is safer to shoot. Good luck with whatever you choose.
     
  11. Dave T

    Dave T Member

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    If you are concerned and aftermarket barrel (with cut rifling) solves the problem.
     
  12. M2HMGHB

    M2HMGHB Member

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    There is a recall for 45 Long Colt ammunition from several lots, and Federal was the ammunition that was used. Bad lot maybe?

    Eddited to add from Glocktalk's Coptalk forum:

    http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228994

    Latest from the NLETS wire - G21 and Fed ammo
    Sent 3/4

    Request National Broadcast

    Per PPB training, please read and dissiminate the following national teletype:
    *****SAFETY INFORMATION*****

    Portland Police Bureau advises all law enforcement agencies of two incidents of catastrophic failure during firearms training. Both incidents involved Glock Model 21 (45) and Federal 230 Hi-Shok practice ammunition. The failure is described as follows:

    Both officers stated no noticeable differences upon firing. Both handguns has casings expand and failed to extract. The gases escaped by blowing a hole through the side of the caseing (sic) tearing away the bottom half of the barrel at the locking lugs, bending them downward at approximately 30 degree angle. The gases continued throught (sic) the trigger housing and magazine well, destroying both components completely. Additionally the upper was separated from the lower, blowing each upper several feet forward of the firing position. Both officers suffered only minor injuries from shrapnel type debris. PPB is temporarily suspending all use of Federal 230 practice ammo pending investigation.

    Any agencies with like incidents please contact Sgt. Mike Lee at Portland Police Bureau training 503-823-0820 or 793-9389.
     
  13. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    That's similar to what I posted before I edited it... They've (Portland) assumably not had problems worth mentioning over the past few years, now they have two failures in one month... Though this is far from a test group, it seems like something other than the guns are to blame... Maybe the guns are partially to blame, but if I own ten samples of a particular gun and I fire each gun 500 times with three kinds of ammo over the course of 5 years (25,000 rounds) with zero failures of any kind, then all of a sudden, two of them fail to feed or fail to extract on the same day, it would seem to reason to first completely rule out factors other than the guns as they have proven themselves to be 100% reliable other than on this day.

    On the other hand, if you have other guns to carry (or can easily afford to buy others) it might be prudent to shelve those 10 guns while you do your research.

    On the topic of Glock kabooms, can anyone give a verified account of a G17 or G19 kabooming with factory copper ammo?
     
  14. Joe D

    Joe D Member

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    We do need to remain sober about this kaboom issue and Glocks. I have personally worked on Glock 17s and 22s with over 200,000 rounds through them. The indoor range in Georgia that I used has numerous Glocks in their rental fleet. Collectively there has been well over 2,000,000 rounds fired through them. These rental guns do not get cleaned as often as they should either. There has not been one single instance of a kaboom. 80% of the rounds fired through them are reloads from Atlanta Arms.
    The degree of failure described in the report does not sound like a gun problem, but an ammo problem. Not too many guns can withstand a double charge. I shoot .45 brass untill it splits.
    Factory ammo can be defective. I personally saw a fully engraved 8 3/8" S&W model 29 blown up with Remington 240 gr factory ammo in 1977. The top half of the cylinder was blown off and the top strap peeled back.
     
  15. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Minor problem: that's BS. Since it operates at MUCH lower pressures than .40 S&W, a .45 ACP handgun is nowhere near as likely to have a case failure as a simialr .40 S&W firearm. The .45 ACP SAAMI maximum average pessure is 21,000 PSI; for .40 S&W it is 35,000 PSI... a 67% increase in pressure over the .45 ACP. You were anti-clued in.

    Incidentally, few if any .45 ACP handguns have much in the way of case support, including 1911s. They don't need it, because the cartridge operates at such low pressures.

    ... And in that case, the amount of case support won't matter, because your gun is going to be broken regardless. More case support really only helps you in a marginal overpressure situation, where the case could split in an unsupported area if the brass is too weak for the pressures it is loaded to. That's alot more important in a case where you are loading high-pressure cartridges at or beyond SAAMI pressure specs that have relatively weak cases for the pressures loaded, like .40 S&W or .38 Super.
     
  16. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    Now is definitely not the time to sell your Model 21 Glock, if for no other reason that there may be a glut of them on the market!

    More information is coming out of the Portland Police Bureau on a daily basis: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html.

    It seems that the bulk of the Model 21-carrying MOS are reluctant to part with their blasters, however. I know I wouldn't want to part with mine!
     
  17. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    Dean,

    It sounds like the fellow's message is implying your website was a major factor in Portland PD's decision that the problem was a design flaw, not an ammo problem. He's sure quoting chapter and verse from your site regarding the chamber support issue.

    Boy, that sure muddies the water if it's true--I've thought for some time that the negative publicity that you gave Glocks when they were still being introduced to the country has colored the thinking of the gun community. You know, first impressions and all that.

    Sort of like the slide separation issue with Berettas. I doubt that there have been 5 slide separations in the last decade or so--but the gun community will always associate that particular failure with the Beretta pistols because that's the first thing many of them heard about the guns.

    Any word on when an independent entity is going to check out the ammo? From what I understand only Portland PD's training dept has looked at it so far.

    John
     
  18. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    Looks like I'll be buying a used Glock 21 on the light side of cheap in the months to come. ;)
     
  19. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    If you take a look at the case where it's unsupported, that's the case head, it's solid brass through the case. Don't worry.
     
  20. Ammo First

    Ammo First Member

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    I think your points are valid. Thier is however an even more compelling reason to unload the glock: It always suprises me how little economic patriotism we see in this country, even at this forum which I'm sure has some of the country's most patriotic citizens, you hardly see any and I mean even a tiny bit of consideration for buying American products.This is not some old rust belt 70s propaganda, America's trade deficit, manufacturing base, .economic/political independence is all at stake. I say trade with country's that trade fairly with America and the rest can kiss off. Ever seen the trade deficit with germany? Its Huge. Austria would'nt even let us use their railways for the Iraq war. I wouldn't buy an Austrian or German Gun, Car or a pretzel for that matter. Dump that NAZI POS and go buy an American Gun (or buy from a respectable ally like Italy or Israel, even Any of the old eastern block countries(Czech, poland) Show america 10 times the respect Germany, Austria, France or Belgium currently do.
     
  21. Tropical Z

    Tropical Z Member

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    :what:
    That was lousy what Austria did to us at the start of the war.Creeps!
    Poland is our true friend now!
     
  22. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    "Chapter and verse," JohnKSa?!?

    My, but it's apparent that you and I see things from a different perspective. Or do you actually think that the Glock kB! FAQ v1.28 is the sole source of (fully documented) information about the lack of casehead support?
    I guess it's true what one of the original FAQ co-authors, Todd Green, said earlier this month: "I learned long ago that when it comes to online gun forums, everything is Dean's fault."

    But your command of history is dubious in the extreme… the very first critical report I published about Glock was in latter 1992, over six years after the pistols were first introduced here, and over five years after I almost single-handedly got them approved for civilian ownership in Suffolk County, NY.

    Another "historical note," I'm astounded at the number of catastrophic M9 slide failures that have occurred long after it should not have been an issue… b-a-a-a-a-d maintenance procedures in certain military units, particularly one which was "late to the game!" You perhaps don't recall that it took not one but two Congressional dirrectives before USMC would first adopt and then actually start issuing the M9s, and I suspect that their warehousing of the pistols meant that they had a number of the "first generation" (manufactured and assembled in Italy) Berettas in service long after the rest of those M9s had been flushed through the system, having either been upgraded with the slide-replacement program or the addition of the oversize hammer pivot pin and milling cut in the slide, or taken out of service after a failure.

    As for when and what with PPB, as I learn more, I'll publish more… but you need to learn to read it more objectively, I think.
     
  23. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    Dean,

    The following quote is from the Portland Police Officer's message on your site:
    I said:
    If you think that's not an objective enough evaluation, I'm not sure what else to say...

    As for the history lesson, I'm not arguing with your chronology--but I still think my statement stands. A lot of shooters first heard about Glocks about the same time that they heard about kB!s. I'm not sure why you responded as if that's some sort of an accusation. Obviously, you've made an effort to publicize the "kB! issue." In effect, I just commended you on the effectiveness of your campaign...
     
  24. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

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    I think shooting is too dangerous to trust plastic. I know I'm in the minority, but I just do not even like the idea of shooting a plastic framed gun. They look ugly and they have no soul.
     
  25. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Odd that my last Beretta 96 had more unsupported case area than my last G23, which in turn had a tighter chamber than my last .40 cal P-226. I really shouldn't examine this stuff for myself. :uhoh:
     
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