I may just sell my Glock 21...
- Thread starter Tropical Z
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Any update on Portland?
I've been carrying a 21 on duty since @ 97-98. I also have a 30. Both have proved perfectly reliable, dependable and tougher than any other gun in the free world. I love my 1911's, but I'll abuse my Glocks and never worry about it. Seems ashame to give up the Glocks for something that seems to be an ammo problem.
I've been carrying a 21 on duty since @ 97-98. I also have a 30. Both have proved perfectly reliable, dependable and tougher than any other gun in the free world. I love my 1911's, but I'll abuse my Glocks and never worry about it. Seems ashame to give up the Glocks for something that seems to be an ammo problem.
MAURICE
Member
snowdog sayz:
Ayup, and the Tulsa show is next weekend
edited for speeling.
Ayup, and the Tulsa show is next weekend
edited for speeling.
BrokenArrow
Member
Someone mentioned Glock 9x19s and kBs? S&W IDPA Winter Championship, Glock 34, PMC ammo.
So that makes the .380 and .45 GAP Glock's the "safest" now?
Sure looks like the Glock 9s do it less often than the Glock 40/45/357 do? If they do, it's not unreasonable to think other guns may do it less than Glock 40/45/357s for similar reasons, whatever those are?
If Glock has 65% of the police market (more than that around here), then we should here of other guns doing it at a rate of about 1 of them for every 2 - 3 Glocks? Glock seems to have much more of an edge than that though?
I can think of several cases of multiple Glock Kbs w the same PD w factory ammo, and more singular incidents. So where are the matching kB incidents w the other guns? Why are they so much better at hiding them? Why are we so much less likely to hear about them? It's not like there aren't a lot of Glock fans just waiting to find em and post em? Should be a club for em at Glock Talk by now?
If it's all Deans' doing, he is a master up there with Karl Rove, Dick Morris, and Jim Jones?
More likely to get a catastrophically fractured slide in a Beretta (and now SIG too) than a Glock, more likely to get a Phase Three malfunction in a Glock 19 than a SIG 226 or S&W 5946... lottsa pieces of falling sky to dodge while ya run for your trusty 1911?
Got to wonder why so much mass hysteria and cognitive dissonance on this particular issue? I'm not going to run and hide from my Glocks (or anything else), but I'm not floating down that river either. Ya know the one - da Nile.
So that makes the .380 and .45 GAP Glock's the "safest" now?
Sure looks like the Glock 9s do it less often than the Glock 40/45/357 do? If they do, it's not unreasonable to think other guns may do it less than Glock 40/45/357s for similar reasons, whatever those are?
If Glock has 65% of the police market (more than that around here), then we should here of other guns doing it at a rate of about 1 of them for every 2 - 3 Glocks? Glock seems to have much more of an edge than that though?
I can think of several cases of multiple Glock Kbs w the same PD w factory ammo, and more singular incidents. So where are the matching kB incidents w the other guns? Why are they so much better at hiding them? Why are we so much less likely to hear about them? It's not like there aren't a lot of Glock fans just waiting to find em and post em? Should be a club for em at Glock Talk by now?
If it's all Deans' doing, he is a master up there with Karl Rove, Dick Morris, and Jim Jones?
More likely to get a catastrophically fractured slide in a Beretta (and now SIG too) than a Glock, more likely to get a Phase Three malfunction in a Glock 19 than a SIG 226 or S&W 5946... lottsa pieces of falling sky to dodge while ya run for your trusty 1911?
Got to wonder why so much mass hysteria and cognitive dissonance on this particular issue? I'm not going to run and hide from my Glocks (or anything else), but I'm not floating down that river either. Ya know the one - da Nile.
Dean Speir
Member
Starting Over…
JohnKSa…
It was apparent to me from the initial (13 March) news story that whoever was handing up information to the Chief for his public utterances, was at least conversant with TGZ's Glock section… certain language, doncha know? So too did my "PPB mole," as you quoted… and then decided this was "a major factor" in this whole business.
And I categorically reject that… you seem to be building a case that the greater part of the problem is the information presented on my Website, and that without that information, then PPB (and others) would simply go after Federal for the replacement guns and switch ammo suppliers.
The Glock kB! FAQ is what it is… a peer-reviewed, collaborative document discussing a phenomenon that, while not unique to the Glock pistols, is widely associated with the guns. Are Todd, Jay and I responsible for that? Gawd, I hope so… it was the whole purpose of the FAQ: a warning to Glock-owners that there was more to the Glock manual's page 15 advisory regarding "only high quality commercially manufactured ammunition in excellent condition" than just legal-department boilerplate. Glock has always known that there were various problems with their pistols, from the "pencil barrel" to the "cracking frames" with the first .40 S&W pistols which had been hastily adapted from the 9 X 19mm Models 17 and 19, to the dangerous safety conditions which necessitated the temporizing Six-Part Upgrade while a frame rail problem was quietly addressed, right up to the more recent NYPD Phase 3 malfunctions and the rear frame slide rail QC/QA issue.
These are all fully documented and readily verifiable… and rarely if ever acknowledged and openly discussed by Glock. Gaston's ego simply won't allow it, #1, and, #2, it would seriously undermine Glock, Inc.'s carefully crafted image of "Perfection."
Where I determined to get into it was almost a dozen years back when an uninpeachable Glock source quietly disclosed that Glock had identified AA#5 as being involved in a "disproportionately high number" (their words, not mine) of catastrophic failures with their .40 S&W pistols, then limited to the Models 22 and 23. Five-six months went by, and nary a word from Smyrna while the Models 22, 23 and the newly introduced Model 24 continued to experience kB!s. Glock, Inc.'s corporate counsel and later V.P. Paul Jannuzzo's response was along the lines of "Hey!, we tell them to use 'only high quality commercially manufactured ammunition in excellent condition.' We've done our part!"
It took Frank James and myself less than a week to track down the cause of the problem (for which H&K was extremely appreciative as seven of their USPs with significantly fuller chamber support had also experienced catastrophic failure which H&K was at a loss to explain).
And the only "official word" from anyone ever, was an addendum to the Accurate Arms reloading manual with a specific warning about, not Glocks, but "…pistols currently available to shooters (which) may not provide complete support to the case when a cartridge is chambered."
Is all this "negative publicity?" Only if you are such an adherent to the Gospel According To Gaston, that you cannot brook any sort of discouraging word.
In the intervening seven years since the publication of the original kB! FAQ, I have maintained it and updated it as new information (on either side of the issue) becomes available, and as discussions on various Internet firearms forums reveal that certain language needs revision in order to promote greater clarity. There are, however, a number of Morons with Modems… one of your old running mates from Kentucky on another forum, for instance… for whom no language can be clear enough. Against an obstacle such as that, I am powerless.
Accepting your posts here at face value, John (and M58's reading as well), you seem a lot more open now to a broader view of the issues, despite your not-so-subtle language choices which reveal your belief that there would be far less problems with Glock pistols if TGZ's Glock pages disappear into the Ho-Zone.
That, I think, is called shooting the messenger. May I without offense ask what about, if not shooting then at least criticizing, the messenger who utterly fails to deliver an important message?
JohnKSa…
Where I have a problem, given our track-record, is the way you like to characterize certain elements. You think I have an agenda (the use of "campaign" seems dispositive of your belief) and I feel that you have one as well, and our objectives are mutually exclusive.
It was apparent to me from the initial (13 March) news story that whoever was handing up information to the Chief for his public utterances, was at least conversant with TGZ's Glock section… certain language, doncha know? So too did my "PPB mole," as you quoted… and then decided this was "a major factor" in this whole business.
And I categorically reject that… you seem to be building a case that the greater part of the problem is the information presented on my Website, and that without that information, then PPB (and others) would simply go after Federal for the replacement guns and switch ammo suppliers.
The Glock kB! FAQ is what it is… a peer-reviewed, collaborative document discussing a phenomenon that, while not unique to the Glock pistols, is widely associated with the guns. Are Todd, Jay and I responsible for that? Gawd, I hope so… it was the whole purpose of the FAQ: a warning to Glock-owners that there was more to the Glock manual's page 15 advisory regarding "only high quality commercially manufactured ammunition in excellent condition" than just legal-department boilerplate. Glock has always known that there were various problems with their pistols, from the "pencil barrel" to the "cracking frames" with the first .40 S&W pistols which had been hastily adapted from the 9 X 19mm Models 17 and 19, to the dangerous safety conditions which necessitated the temporizing Six-Part Upgrade while a frame rail problem was quietly addressed, right up to the more recent NYPD Phase 3 malfunctions and the rear frame slide rail QC/QA issue.
These are all fully documented and readily verifiable… and rarely if ever acknowledged and openly discussed by Glock. Gaston's ego simply won't allow it, #1, and, #2, it would seriously undermine Glock, Inc.'s carefully crafted image of "Perfection."
Where I determined to get into it was almost a dozen years back when an uninpeachable Glock source quietly disclosed that Glock had identified AA#5 as being involved in a "disproportionately high number" (their words, not mine) of catastrophic failures with their .40 S&W pistols, then limited to the Models 22 and 23. Five-six months went by, and nary a word from Smyrna while the Models 22, 23 and the newly introduced Model 24 continued to experience kB!s. Glock, Inc.'s corporate counsel and later V.P. Paul Jannuzzo's response was along the lines of "Hey!, we tell them to use 'only high quality commercially manufactured ammunition in excellent condition.' We've done our part!"
It took Frank James and myself less than a week to track down the cause of the problem (for which H&K was extremely appreciative as seven of their USPs with significantly fuller chamber support had also experienced catastrophic failure which H&K was at a loss to explain).
And the only "official word" from anyone ever, was an addendum to the Accurate Arms reloading manual with a specific warning about, not Glocks, but "…pistols currently available to shooters (which) may not provide complete support to the case when a cartridge is chambered."
Is all this "negative publicity?" Only if you are such an adherent to the Gospel According To Gaston, that you cannot brook any sort of discouraging word.
In the intervening seven years since the publication of the original kB! FAQ, I have maintained it and updated it as new information (on either side of the issue) becomes available, and as discussions on various Internet firearms forums reveal that certain language needs revision in order to promote greater clarity. There are, however, a number of Morons with Modems… one of your old running mates from Kentucky on another forum, for instance… for whom no language can be clear enough. Against an obstacle such as that, I am powerless.
Accepting your posts here at face value, John (and M58's reading as well), you seem a lot more open now to a broader view of the issues, despite your not-so-subtle language choices which reveal your belief that there would be far less problems with Glock pistols if TGZ's Glock pages disappear into the Ho-Zone.
That, I think, is called shooting the messenger. May I without offense ask what about, if not shooting then at least criticizing, the messenger who utterly fails to deliver an important message?
Dean,
I don't for a moment believe Glock's pistols are perfect, nor do I believe that H&K doesn't compromise.
Given that you have devoted quite a bit of effort to publicizing the kB! issue, it seems a bit surprising that you would be so defensive when it is pointed out that information from your website caused the Portland "Police Bureau's concern to quickly shift towards a "design flaw" theory." Especially since the quote I used came off your own website.
Ok, the main thing I'm getting around to is that until an independent party gets in on the gun&ammo examination, it's a bit premature to use this incident as further fuel to the kB! fire. Especially since it's not clear just how much the information on your website has influenced the thinking of the PPB. Remember, the PPB, is at the moment the only entity that has examined both the guns and the ammunition.
I think you'll agree that things are getting a bit circular here. The PPB "mole" states that PPB shifted their concern to the design flaw theory after seeing your website and you, in turn have used their conclusions to bolster the design flaw theory.
BTW, you'll note that I'm not quoting from Glock's press release. That's because I consider them to be as about objective as the PPB right now. They said pretty much what they should say (or at least exactly what was expected), given that PPB won't allow them to look at anything but pictures.
John
I don't for a moment believe Glock's pistols are perfect, nor do I believe that H&K doesn't compromise.
Given that you have devoted quite a bit of effort to publicizing the kB! issue, it seems a bit surprising that you would be so defensive when it is pointed out that information from your website caused the Portland "Police Bureau's concern to quickly shift towards a "design flaw" theory." Especially since the quote I used came off your own website.
Ok, the main thing I'm getting around to is that until an independent party gets in on the gun&ammo examination, it's a bit premature to use this incident as further fuel to the kB! fire. Especially since it's not clear just how much the information on your website has influenced the thinking of the PPB. Remember, the PPB, is at the moment the only entity that has examined both the guns and the ammunition.
I think you'll agree that things are getting a bit circular here. The PPB "mole" states that PPB shifted their concern to the design flaw theory after seeing your website and you, in turn have used their conclusions to bolster the design flaw theory.
BTW, you'll note that I'm not quoting from Glock's press release. That's because I consider them to be as about objective as the PPB right now. They said pretty much what they should say (or at least exactly what was expected), given that PPB won't allow them to look at anything but pictures.
John
goalie
Member
Interestingly, the only K-Booms I have seen with my own eyes happened to a Beretta while in the Marines (a privately owned weapon at the Camp lejeune range in 92) and a Sig .45, also a civilian weapon that, knowing the owner, was abused beyond belief and likely happened with very hot handloads. Oh well, I only have 9mm Glocks anyhow.
Tamara
Senior Member
BrokenArrow,
Statistically speaking, one HK Mk23 kB! should be worth about 12,378 .40 cal Glock kB!'s, right?
Still waiting to hear about the 12,377th Glock .40 kB!, which makes the Mk23 statistically more fragile.
Statistically speaking, one HK Mk23 kB! should be worth about 12,378 .40 cal Glock kB!'s, right?
Still waiting to hear about the 12,377th Glock .40 kB!, which makes the Mk23 statistically more fragile.
ANY gun can go Kb with a bad batch of factory or handloaded ammo!!!
Think about it, we take that risk EVERY TIME we pull the trigger!!!
75%+ of all firearm failures can be traced to bad ammo. Nuff said.
My Glock 30 has close to 15,000 rnds through it and no Kb.
Think about it, we take that risk EVERY TIME we pull the trigger!!!
75%+ of all firearm failures can be traced to bad ammo. Nuff said.
My Glock 30 has close to 15,000 rnds through it and no Kb.
Tamara
Senior Member
Sshhh!! Don't tell folks that! They're sure that if they buy the right Magic Gun Brand a double charge or bullet setback won't hurt them!
BrokenArrow
Member
Nice try Tamara, but I was talkin' 'bout LE guns and factory ammo, not the whole shebang of kaBooms.
LE ammo sales show the 40 and 9 still lead the 45 and 357SIG by quite a bit. So where are all the Glock 9 kBs? Should be pretty close? Why are they not even remotely close to the Glock 40/45 kBs?
Glock claims about 65 - 75% of the market? So they outnumber everybody else by about 3 to 1? That's still about 4,000 PDs w other guns.
So where are all the PDs w kBs w factory ammo in other guns? Glock kBs in 40/45 lead the Glock 9s by quite a bit in LE w factory ammo, the Glocks in 40/45 lead the others by quite a bit too, by a lot more than the 12,000 PD to 4,000 PD edge would indicate?
Portland, Amarillo, Warren County... multiple kBs w factory ammo. How many for any PD w any other .40/45? With Glock 9s?
Rack 'em and stack 'em, we can add 'em up and see how they compare.
The Glock 40/45s do seem to be doing it out of proportion to their numbers compared to A) Glock 9s and B) other 40/45s - in LE - w factory ammo?
I know all guns can and have done it. Was next to a Ruger GP100 that blew a cylinder w factory Federal ammo once. Only fatality I know of from a .40 kB is from a Ruger .40... hmmmm...
LE ammo sales show the 40 and 9 still lead the 45 and 357SIG by quite a bit. So where are all the Glock 9 kBs? Should be pretty close? Why are they not even remotely close to the Glock 40/45 kBs?
Glock claims about 65 - 75% of the market? So they outnumber everybody else by about 3 to 1? That's still about 4,000 PDs w other guns.
So where are all the PDs w kBs w factory ammo in other guns? Glock kBs in 40/45 lead the Glock 9s by quite a bit in LE w factory ammo, the Glocks in 40/45 lead the others by quite a bit too, by a lot more than the 12,000 PD to 4,000 PD edge would indicate?
Portland, Amarillo, Warren County... multiple kBs w factory ammo. How many for any PD w any other .40/45? With Glock 9s?
Rack 'em and stack 'em, we can add 'em up and see how they compare.
The Glock 40/45s do seem to be doing it out of proportion to their numbers compared to A) Glock 9s and B) other 40/45s - in LE - w factory ammo?
I know all guns can and have done it. Was next to a Ruger GP100 that blew a cylinder w factory Federal ammo once. Only fatality I know of from a .40 kB is from a Ruger .40... hmmmm...
Tamara
Senior Member
Y'know, 9mm is just not an easy caliber to blow a gun up with. It's hard to overcharge that teeny case (of course, factory ammo is never overcharged. Only silly handloaders do that
), bullet setback tends not to be as likely in smaller calibers, and chamber walls tend to be thicker meaning that even if a case does let go, odds are you're going to wind up with the magazine guts on the floor as the worst thing that happens. Oh, and you might launch an extractor. .40, on the other hand, (and .45) are starting to get into territory that offers great possibility for reloading screwups, and seem more susceptible to setback (due to the larger diameter? Heavier bullet? I don't know.)If you really want to blow a handgun to flinders though, you need a large revolver cartridge.
Lobotomy Boy
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Messages
- 2,449
Back in the 1970s I had an old model Super Blackhawk that KBd before I got it. It happened to my uncle, the original owner, and it was rather spectacular. He just filled that cylinder with lead and we used the gun for years-decades, actually--as a five-shot. What can I say--we were a bunch of simple, hairy woodsrunners.
I wish I had that gun today. I'd send it back to Ruger for the safety upgrade and a new cylinder and have a pretty nice old gun.
I wish I had that gun today. I'd send it back to Ruger for the safety upgrade and a new cylinder and have a pretty nice old gun.
BrokenArrow
Member
If ya really...
... wanna blow a shotgun bbl to banana peels, just trip in the snow, then shoot the next rabbit the dogs jump.
No, it wasn't me.
I did have a "kB" w a 62 pound draw weight Browning Nomad recurve hunting bow. Was at full draw, released the arrow, and my arm felt like I had touched a screwdriver to a spark plug ... the factory Dacron string had blown all 18 strands! No damage to me or the bow, and I even bagged a trophy class window air conditioner.
... wanna blow a shotgun bbl to banana peels, just trip in the snow, then shoot the next rabbit the dogs jump.
No, it wasn't me.
I did have a "kB" w a 62 pound draw weight Browning Nomad recurve hunting bow. Was at full draw, released the arrow, and my arm felt like I had touched a screwdriver to a spark plug ... the factory Dacron string had blown all 18 strands! No damage to me or the bow, and I even bagged a trophy class window air conditioner.
Roland-G23
Member
Hey Dean, thanks for quoting me on your website.
While I fully support your 1st, 2nd, and other Amendment rights, your soapbox rants about the Glock firearms are somewhat of a disservice to gun enthusiasts.
My "MYTH..." quote was meant to imply that from my source, the Glock design played NO part in the catastrophic failure of the PPB's G21s. While it still remains to be determined what was the actual cause of the kB!'s because of the PPB's refusal to allow the manufacturer to inspect/test the weapons involved, I seriously doubt a "traditional" kB! event would have caused the type of failure described by all parties.
While I fully support your 1st, 2nd, and other Amendment rights, your soapbox rants about the Glock firearms are somewhat of a disservice to gun enthusiasts.
My "MYTH..." quote was meant to imply that from my source, the Glock design played NO part in the catastrophic failure of the PPB's G21s. While it still remains to be determined what was the actual cause of the kB!'s because of the PPB's refusal to allow the manufacturer to inspect/test the weapons involved, I seriously doubt a "traditional" kB! event would have caused the type of failure described by all parties.
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Tamara
Senior Member
I was kinda wondering how much (and of what flavor) Kool-Aid one has to drink to believe that a simple case failure of an otherwise SAAMI-spec load (allegedly caused by an unmeasured, unspecified, and unquantified lack of case support) can cause a proof-tested barrel to split longitudinally. Must be pretty flavorful stuff; maybe they have ads for it at TGZ. 
That was a different G21 kaBoom, that the shooter admits could have resulted from a double charge behind one of his own cast, semiwadcutter reloads. The PPB Glcoks did not split the barrel, but did destroy the bottom of the barrel at the locking lugs, according to the armorer. I don't think any oictures have been posted of the PPB guns at this time.
Lobotomy Boy
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Messages
- 2,449
Regarding the flavor of Kool Aid, I think grape is preferred.
Roland-G23
Member
The person that described the failures to me had personally inspected both guns, and said that both barrels were split longitudinally like they had been cut with a hacksaw.
There is no way a 21,000 CUP round is going to do that to a barrel, I don't care how little case support it supposedly has UNLESS there are some serious metallurgical flaws or DEFECTIVE ammunition.
As part of a full-time police range staff, I have helped qualify 2400 plus officers every quarter. We issue 9mm 124+p and 45 200+p gold dot ammo and authorize most high quality firearms. Glocks account for roughly 65% of the guns used. This 45 ammo is very effective but very hard on guns. We fire about 1.4 million rounds per year. The Glock 21's have proven to be the most reliable with this ammo. We have had one KB- an HK USP. We have had numerous 1911's (Colt, Kimber and Para) break. Slides, frames, springs. S&W 45's hold up pretty well but some broken trigger bars and spring issues. Numerous Sig 220's have broken or fractured frames. The 21 has proven to be the strongest design we authorize. We are switching to standard velocity 45 230 grn gold dot because of the difficulty of the other designs handling the +p.
I would not be worried by the safety of the design in the least.
I would not be worried by the safety of the design in the least.
Dean Speir
Member
Roland-G23 shows up again:
And JohnKSa, I need to ask you about your statement:
Sure, I get the (dis)credit for the bulk of the darker side of the Glock story, because I've put in the time investigating this, verifying it and reporting on it… most of what I've published over the past almost 14 years is based on independent laboratory reports and expert court testimony.
- You're quite welcome.
- Au contraire, dear Roland… that's not a rant, it's a straight out recitation of the facts as they have been reported by others, and quotes from people such as yo'self. How is that "a disservice to gun enthusiasts?"
- I know, as do most others who can read, what you stated… I don't think there was any "imply" about it. You straight out declaimed that your source felt, based on personal observation, that it was ammunition-related. (I'm at a loss, however, to understand what you mean by a "'traditional' kB! event." You seem to be acknowledging that there are in fact catastrophic Glock failures which are not ammo-related.)
- The "Kool Aid" appelation is not mine, but that of TFL Moderator Rosco Benson… it's a pretty funny, and appropriate, term for those for whom Glock can not only do no wrong, but whose emotional lives are inextricably intertwined with polymer and Tenifer.
- While I freely acknowledge my advancing years and general disgruntlement (not with Glock pistols but with the policies of Glock, Inc.) I'll leave the Scooby Doo stuff to you as it's clearly something with which you're more comfortable… I fear it's far too advanced for me.
And JohnKSa, I need to ask you about your statement:
Do you really think that what you characterize as "the design flaw theory," is a devise of mine?
Sure, I get the (dis)credit for the bulk of the darker side of the Glock story, because I've put in the time investigating this, verifying it and reporting on it… most of what I've published over the past almost 14 years is based on independent laboratory reports and expert court testimony.
Marshall
Member
I'll be there!
dww
Member
How is that relevant?
According to the message from the PPB "mole" that you posted on your website, the PPB shifted to the design flaw theory as a result of looking at your website.
Whoever's design flaw theory it is, they read it on YOUR site.
Now, you, in turn are using their conclusion (which the PPB "mole says was influenced by your site) to bolster the design flaw theory.
If that's not circular, I don't know what is.
Until there is some sort of independent examination of the guns and ammunition involved in this incident, it's premature for ANYONE to use this incident to support any theory.
BTW, I'm interested to hear your response to this statement posted on this thread.
- Status
