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I think I got the point across this time.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Owen Sparks, Dec 2, 2010.

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  1. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    The other day I was making small talk with a retired school teacher who I have known since I was a kid. The subject of guns came up and she made a statement to the effect that everyday people should not have military weapons. I noticed that she had a pen in her hand so I asked:

    Should everyday people have access to sharp pointy things like your pen?

    She looked puzzled so I said: Remember a while back when that in the local jail guy got stabbed in the throat with a pen and died? It was in the news?

    She said yes.

    I asked: You would not stab me in the throat with your pen would you?

    She looked surprised and said: NO, of course not.

    So I asked: Suppose it was a lot sharper, would you then? I then took out my pocket knife, opened it and laid it on the desk right in front of her.
    I said: Now you have access to a deadly weapon. Are you any more likely to kill me now?

    NO!

    As I retrieved my knife I asked: What if it was a pistol instead of a knife? It would be a lot easier to use right? You could kill me from a safe distance, would that make it easier for you?

    No, of course not.

    Finally I said: Suppose it was one of those evil black automatic assault rifles. Would that make you any more likely to use it to kill me? You could safely shoot me from across the street and probably get away with it.

    She was quite taken aback by all this and said: No I don’t want to hurt anybody.

    So I finished by asking: So you would be no danger to others even if you had access to a bazooka while some people are dangerous with a Bick pen?

    She thought for a minute and said: I see your point but if I can get a gun what keeps bad people from getting them?

    I then asked: If you can get a pen what keeps bad people from doing the same? Or should everyone be punished for what they might do? Is a person guilty simply for possessing the means to commit a crime?
    After all you might stab me with that pen. Or should people be presumed innocent until they actually try to stab or shoot someone?

    She became very receptive at that point as if a light bulb had come on and I think I got the point across that crime is an action, not a potential action.
     
  2. gunnutery

    gunnutery Member

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    :cool:

    Excellent job!
     
  3. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Member

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    +1! Great job.
     
  4. JoeMal

    JoeMal Member

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    Great job 'walking' her through it....I can imagine her gears spinning!
     
  5. TNT in Round Rock

    TNT in Round Rock Member

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    I like the way you worked that conversation .. good points
     
  6. S. Hill

    S. Hill Member

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    Geeez! Don't ya just HATE logic???

    Way to go!
     
  7. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    Filed for Future Referance.

    Thanks! I will remember this one.
     
  8. docnyt

    docnyt Member

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    So when are you taking her to the range?
     
  9. ShaiVong

    ShaiVong Member

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    A great scalable argument. Be prepared for the obvious counter-argument and think your way through it. I imagine it would go something like this:

    You wouldn't feel nervous standing next to me with a pen or a bazooka because you know I'm non-violent. You would feel nervous standing next to Hannibal Lector with a toothpick, let alone a firearm. Ergo, restrictive gun control is needed to keep weapons out of the hands of people who somebody decides shouldn't have them. Then the conversation moves on to who makes the decision and what their criteria should be.
     
  10. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    That is simple, people like Hanibal Lector who have been proven to be dangerous.
     
  11. Leadhead

    Leadhead Member

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    Was it a semi auto pen or a single shot?:D

    Nice work!
     
  12. ShaiVong

    ShaiVong Member

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    Not entirely simple. It's not unheard of for mass murderers to make a violent gun rampage their first violent crime.
     
  13. BearAZ737

    BearAZ737 Member

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    That was like professing your faith. Everyone one hopes when their turn comes they can handle the situation so perfectly. Great Job!
     
  14. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    A guy I went to high school with can no longer own a car. Some years back he got into an argument with his X wife and went on a violent car rampage. He drove right through the livingroom window slightly injuring his X and distroying her house. He was convicted of assault and did some time in the state pen. Now he rides a bycicle everywhere he goes.

    Should we all be limited to bycicles because of what we might do with a big powerful automobile? Of course not, but a few people like the fore mentioned individual should.

    Isn't anyone compitent enough to be turned loose behind the wheel of a two ton steel SUV compitent enough to own our nations current service rifle?
     
  15. JoeSlomo

    JoeSlomo Member

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    Well done.

    Sadly, logic is lost on many.
     
  16. therewolf

    therewolf member

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    IMO, JoeSlomo is right.

    You may have won the argument, and maybe actually changed a receptive person's mind, in this case. However, I feel it's the exception, rather than the
    rule, OP.

    99% of the time, I find I'm arguing with anti's who simply refuse to use or listen to reason. Unfortunately, I have too little time to try to find that 1% who may possibly be swayed.

    Any logical person should see we need to punish criminal behavior,

    not inanimate objects.
     
  17. ShaiVong

    ShaiVong Member

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    I like the parallel with a car. I often reflect upon how dangerous driving is. From what I gather, 42,836 were killed by cars in 2004, whereas ~ 8,000 people were shot to death. Although there are more cars being driven than guns shot every day, automobiles are clearly hazardous.

    I'd wager that if the car was invented now, rather than 100 years ago, it would never be allowed.

    Another interesting point is that to be able to drive an automobile you have to demonstrate a pretty minimal (but non-zero) level of ability to safely use and maneuver a vehicle. In order to buy a gun, you basically have to show proof of age and let them make sure you're not a violent criminal. Much, much more open.
     
  18. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    TWO MILLION people die in America each year, more than the population of Lichtenstein and Luxembourg combined! You don't have to look to scifi author Harry Harrison's Pyrra to find the Deathworld. America is The Deathworld!!

    Or, two million deaths a year from all causes out of a population of a third of a billion is average.
     
  19. therewolf

    therewolf member

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    You make our case for us, however,sir.

    America may be "Deathworld" but, because we, as a nation of individuals, are free to do as we choose, it is the country we, and many others, willingly CHOOSE to live AND DIE in.

    Free choice attracts many others from around the world to emigrate to the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. (the VERY brave) None of us EVER give a second's thought to how much statistically safer it is to live elsewhere, and leave our constitutional freedoms behind.

    Guns are a part of America. Always have been, ALWAYS will be.
     
  20. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Hope you don't mind, but I am planning on blatantly plagerising that for my next run in with an anti. :D

    Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
     
  21. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    Nicely done. Being a "retired" teacher however, her influence on the youngsters who will be having to make these decisions in the years to come, will be minimal.
     
  22. NY'er

    NY'er Member

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    VERY well done!

    She thought for a minute and said: I see your point but if I can get a gun what keeps bad people from getting them?

    Another great question to add at this point might be "Well if the law says we can't so I don't~ can I trust the 'bad guys' to do the same???"
     
  23. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    That was so good you convinced even me to buy another gun!
     
  24. danprkr

    danprkr Member

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    Hope you don't mind if I steal that one someday when needed.
     
  25. ZCORR Jay

    ZCORR Jay Member

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    That was a very good illustration and your lucky that you were talking to someone who had an open mind. Unfortunately there are many ignorant people who would have still discredited your entire presentation.
     
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