I was frying up some eggs for my breakfast this morning.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by George Hill, Jun 21, 2004.

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  1. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    I was frying up some eggs for my breakfast this morning. I was impressed how the eggs just slid right off the pan and onto my super healthy whole wheat toast without butter thanks to the Teflon coating of the pan.
    Then after I ate, I read a review of Para Ordinance’s new super-duper ultra powerful extractor that makes all other extractors on 1911’s obsolete. Not that I can ever remember any of my 1911s suffer from a failure to extract, I am sure that this new thing would just be that much better. Whatever. Color me unimpressed.
    I got thinking of all the so called advances that have been hawked as wonderful advances for rifles and for pistols that we can’t live without… garden rake sized extractor claws, ejection ports big enough to launch a Polaris through… and these things do help some… but they are not solving the problem.
    We are coating our bullets with Teflon and Moly and Nylon to reduce friction and fouling in the barrel and help feeding… and that’s fine and good. But how come no one has coated the brass casing?
    If stuck cartridges are such a problem, why not make them so they don’t stick? If I can pan fry some roast beef hash and eggs (I lied about the toast, that was on the side with butter and strawberry jam thank you very much!) and have it all slide out without sticking… why can’t we expect the same thing from a cartridge case?
    A Teflon (or other such) coating on the brass would help the weapon strip the round out of the magazine, up into the chamber, and seat it into full battery so much easier. Then after the round is fired and the pressure expands the brass so it pushes against the walls of the chamber, such a coating on the brass would be a great aid and would be more beneficial than an oversized extractor claw. Because you wouldn't need an oversize claw because the cartridge wouldn't be stuck.
    So here we are... an open letter suggestion to Cor-Bon, Black Hills, Federal, Hornady, Georgia Arms, Aquila, Winchester, and all you other makers of ammunition: Coat the outsides of the cartridges with a Teflon, PTFE, Moly, or NP3 type coating, whatever you want... that gives the brass a non-stick, slick and smooth surface.
     
  2. Walosi

    Walosi Member

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    No ballistic tech, or mechanical geeneeyoose, but the brass has to stick to effect a seal when it expands. Additional back-pressure created by a "slippery" case could be a problem, as well as build-up of the coating shed in the chamber. Just playin' devils advocate, not a slam.
     
  3. BHPshooter

    BHPshooter Member

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    You're on to something, George. I would imagine that a lot of failures to extract have to do with the chamber being a tad rougher, thus making extraction more of a chore.

    As far as "expansion" goes, the case can still expand -- it is not held in the chamber by itself, it is held in the chamber by a spring-loaded slide (speaking only about autos here). Also, locked-breech-recoil-operated or gas-delayed-blowback actions will make this even more of a moot point.

    I'd like to see this. If they can coat cases with laquer, polymer, and nickel, why not Teflon or NP3? I'd prefer NP3, I think, as it is both nickel AND teflon. ;)

    Wes
     
  4. M16

    M16 Member

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    The brass needs to "stick" to the chamber walls to decrease back pressure so I doubt if this will ever happen. That is why you should never leave oil in the chamber.
     
  5. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Yet another cherished illusion bites the dust.
     
  6. Leatherneck

    Leatherneck Member

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    So I'm wasting my time waxing and polishing each cartridge after I reload it? Is that what you're telling me? ;)

    TC
    TFL Survivor
     
  7. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Blowbacks might use back pressure, but gas and recoil operated guns dont. Leveractions and bolt actions don't. And even if you needed a little friction to help the gun stay in battery for a tiny fraction of a second - use a recoil spring that is a pound heavier.
    Have you ever had a round stuck in the chamber? Not just a failure to extract - I'm talking STUCK. You have to get out a cleaning rod and bang the case out... and if that doesn't work and the base of the brass is ripped off, then a gunsmith has to use some tools to rip the brass out from the inside. I've see one where the smith had to use a chamber ream to cut the brass out. Maybe - just maybe that wouldn't have happened if the brass had a slick coating.
    Why if, this idea wouldn't work - why is Wolf coating their steel cases? And if they can coat steel, why can't that work with brass?
    :scrutiny:
    And why is it that the first response to a new idea is always "it wont work"?
    If I can put a caddy V-8 into a Honda CVCC and make it work, I can put some damn teflon on a .30-06 case and make that work.
     
  8. Poodleshooter

    Poodleshooter Member

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    Wolf coats their cases to prevent rust. The old green lacquer sure didn't help extraction in AR15's, hence the new gray polymer coating on their ammo.
    I think the reason that coatings are avoided are: cost and lack of effect.
    Usually brass cases only fail to extract if there is a gun problem with the extractor or if they are reloaded too many times and tear off. Why add value to cases that 95% of shooters just throw away?
     
  9. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    George, I think you misunderstand what was pointed out earlier. The seal is not for the function of the gun, but rather to trap the expanding gases to send them down the barrel instead of floating back around the cartridge, causing uneven pressure and potential damage to the action. I don't know if a slick coating on the brass would affect that or not.

    Wolf ammo is coated because the cases are steel. Steel rusts if it is exposed to the elements. I don't think there is any lubricocity issues relating to the coating.

    It is an interesting thing to think about. I have no idea.
     
  10. Wiley

    Wiley Member

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    Wouldn't it be more efficient to coat the chamber?

    I did see the ad for the power extractor and had a thought: I have a Glock 27 in .40 S&W. With a little bullet setback (manualy or through re-chambering) I think it may extract the spent brass, slide, barrell, springs, recoil rod, magazine and, part of the frame. A one-shot detail strip and no special extractor needed!
     
  11. trapperjohn

    trapperjohn Member

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    couple of problems I see with this.
    1) cost, its another process and would add more to the cost, ammo is relatively cheap, adding cost could cut demand
    2) Teflon scratches pretty easy, most of those teflon coated pans you should not use a metal spatual on, its feasible that the teflon could get scratched off in rough handling before use, and think about reloading, i fear resizing the cases would strip most of it off. scratching just part of it off could mess up the seal
    3) is the slickness of the case that big of an issue? I doubt it, Cases stuck inthe chamber are usually a chamber issue. Teflon will ot help that, any steel reoughness in the chamber would cut through the teflon. failure to feed usually occurs near the tip of the bullet, once the bullet itslef clears the friction from the casing offers minimal resistance.
    4) tolerances,adding a layer of teflon increases the diameter of the case, could result in more feeding problems
     
  12. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    You only have to fire the round once. And cost per round wouldn't exceed one cent per round when you are talking mass production. Yes, another step in the process. It's not an unsurmountable obstical. Tollerances are not that great in most chambers so as to make this a problem.

    I don't see how a slick case would effect the gasses. The pressure would still open the case up and push it against the chamber walls.

    If you have a chamber issue enough that this would be a problem, then an oversized extractor wont help much either. You would more likely just rip the brass rim off the cartridge.
     
  13. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    I wish I could join this discussion but since all of my guns feed and extract perfectly, I dont need to :)

    WildperfectgunsAlaska
     
  14. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Yeah, well when I get my Marlin up to you, you can make it perfect too.
    :D
     
  15. Spinner

    Spinner Member

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    You could always try a little experiment with something like One shot case lube ..... you know the stuff that reloaders use to make forming brass cases easier in their dies.

    Just grab a handful of rounds, lay 'em out on a sheet of newspaper and give them a quick spray with One Shot. Roll ém round, let 'em dry and try 'em. It'll soon give you an idea as to whether lubing cases is a bad thing.

    The only disadvantage I can see is fumbling with cases that're slicker'n pig snot while in a stressful situation.

    Spinner
     
  16. NRA4LIFE

    NRA4LIFE Member

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    Hmmmm, interesting. Maybe that old 742 of my dads that he refuses to let me melt down could finally extract a 30.06 case.
     
  17. M16

    M16 Member

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    I wouldn't advise people to spay thier cases down with lubricant. This is very dangerous and stupid. But Darwin can always use another example.
     
  18. MeekandMild

    MeekandMild Member

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    Another Teflon problem is that it is a fluorine compound which breaks down, loses its slickness and outgasses when it is heated beyond tolerence. It does OK on a frying pan which doesn't get heated too much beyond frying temperature, but when you start talking about super high temp its another story. I guess if you wanted to glue the cases into the gun forever it might be a solution. :fire:
     
  19. sm

    sm member

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    I'm not an engineer.
    I understand what you are thinking. My experience has always been to keep chambers clean and dry. Way back yonder I was told what was related previous - the case need to stay in place for 'wee bit" ( scientific for millisecond I guess) in order for the physics and gas to do their thing.

    I dunno, not a real big fan of teflon myself. I prefer cast iron - doesn't stick , scratch, can be re seasoned and doesn't emit toxics when scratched.

    I would think chrome moly cases would work :D

    Zinc or moly might work better. Lazy me I'd rather use 0000 steel wool on one chamber than all those rounds...;)

    Use that teflon skillet to fix your kids "eggs in a hole". Taste better when cooked in cast iron with bacon grease tho'...:p
     
  20. Spinner

    Spinner Member

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    Having thought about it a bit more, I'm thinking that lubricant is possibly not a good thing.

    I'm guessing (and I may be wrong here) but Winchester, Remington, Federal, Norma, PMC, etc probably have fairly substantial R&D budgets and they probably employ some pretty smart engineer-type critters. I'm guessing that they're not unaware of extraction problems and the technicalities of applying lubricant to ammunition are pretty simple. The costs of doing so would also be pretty low ... very small on a per unit cost basis.

    So, if lubricating cases to allow better extraction was the true answer to all the worlds ills, wouldn't ammunition manufacturers already be doing it?? In a competitive marketplace, wouldn't anything that gives you a significant edge would be pounced on?

    Maybe the problem with poor extraction is a firearm issue rather than an ammunition issue.

    On the other hand, does that mean that reloaded ammunition must be scrupulously cleaned of all case lubricant prior to use?? :scrutiny:

    Hmmmmmm

    Maybe holding fire on the case lube is a good idea. :scrutiny:

    Spinner
     
  21. Samurai Penguin

    Samurai Penguin Member

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    :what: :D

    You didn't! And if you did, I hope you took pics. I've gotta see that!
     
  22. sch40

    sch40 Member

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    Why not put the Teflon(R) on the inside of the chamber, instead? That way you won't have to pay for really expensive cartridges.

    I think this would be a good idea for revolvers, too. It's always a chore to eject all of the spent cartridge casing from my aunt's .357 (of course, she never cleans it, so.... :uhoh: )
     
  23. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    The purpose of the cartridge case is to provide rearward obduration. it must "stick" to the chamber walls to do that, otherwise, you'll get high-pressure gas squirting back into the action (and into the shooter's face.)

    A secondary problem is that the case reduces thrust on the bolt/breech block face at a cricical point -- the pressure peak. By gripping the wall of the chamber, it spreads that thrust over a wider area, and makes autos and semi-autos function more "gently."

    There are some weapons that require lubricated cases, and those weapons must have special features designed in to prevent the resulting violent action from damaging the weapon in short order.

    Lubricating cases is NOT a good idea, and I don't recommend anyone try it.
     
  24. Frohickey

    Frohickey Member

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    I don't think a Teflon coated inside chamber is gonna help.

    Have you seen what your new Teflon coated pan looks like after a few years of use? You have pits and areas on the pan where there is no Teflon anymore, and your corned beef hash is not sliding anywhere anymore.

    Brass cartridges can get dirty, and dirty, especially carbon and other small metal particles, be it from the magazine lips, or the gun itself will make short work out of a Teflon coated chamber.

    A better solution, which is already done by the good manufacturers is polishing their chambers. As others have said, oil in the chamber is a bad idea, not because it would help in extraction, but what do you have when you heat oil? You get a varnish coating inside of your chamber.

    A polished chamber, maybe a little bit heat-treated for hardening, or made out of the proper hardness steel is so much better. Don't oil it so that you don't have varnish buildup (and don't have to scrub to get it out).

    If the chamber is of proper dimensions, then you don't need any rough surfaces at all to hold the brass in. Think about it. Expanding gasses in the cartridge case expands in all directions. The force on the case head is towards the rear, and a properly functioning action should have enough strength to balance the rearward force with a forward force. Additionally, the force of the expanding gasses in the cartridge case wall is towards the chamber walls, and a properly cut smooth chamber will counter this in the opposite direction.

    If you have a rough chamber and your action is not working properly, you end up with a case head that is not supported. You end up with a ruptured case head, if its really bad, or case stretching if not too bad. (Not to mention, difficult extraction.) Either way, a rough chamber would tend to hide the problem until its too late, by a case head separation, or case stretching. A baby's bottom smooth chamber but bad action will show either one as flattened primer or deformed case head, but at least you get extraction of the case.

    Also, if its rough going in, its also rough going out. There is no lube fairy. (At least for inorganics.) :uhoh: :evil: :D
     
  25. ChopperKen

    ChopperKen Member

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    :what: We need picks of the Honda George!!!
    Northstar or older Eldo W/472-500 c.i. and front drive trans?
    And to stay on topic cast iron with butter lube works best for my farm fresh eggs:D
    Ken
     
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