I was thinking of buying a Glock and then...
- Thread starter atblis
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Manedwolf
member
Dude! Reduce your picture size!!!
dasmi
Member
Learn how to resize your pictures, everyone. This is getting insane.
ABBOBERG
Member
Atblis: Could you try a lower screen resolution? I can't even see the whole image.
As far as partial chamber support - what does that mean? The chamber support in my Kahr PM9 is at .165" from the breech face. The "solid" area inside my 9mm ammo was about the same number, so does that mean the Kahr has "zero" support? If the feed ramp goes back to, say .185", does that mean .020" of "negative support"? What support do the Glocks normally have, in say, 9mm?
As far as partial chamber support - what does that mean? The chamber support in my Kahr PM9 is at .165" from the breech face. The "solid" area inside my 9mm ammo was about the same number, so does that mean the Kahr has "zero" support? If the feed ramp goes back to, say .185", does that mean .020" of "negative support"? What support do the Glocks normally have, in say, 9mm?
atblis
Member
Gee
every other 10mm I've ever fired doesn't do that (Even pushing a 180gr at 1380 out of a 4.25" barrel).
every other 10mm I've ever fired doesn't do that (Even pushing a 180gr at 1380 out of a 4.25" barrel).
Rexrider
Member
atblis
Alright. I see pictures of a 10mm casing with a hole in it. I hole that is typical of an unsupported chamber. But that is all I see.
What is the rest of the story? Assuming the casing was fired from a Glock, what is the story on the ammo? Was it new factory ammo or reloads?
What happened to the handgun? Was there damage? Was it an actual Kaboom?
If you are going to post pictures like that please include the facts that go with the pictures.
You are welcome to make whatever choices you wish. Even if that includes not buying Glocks based on that one casing. But for me I have been very happy with the Glocks I have owned over the years and will continue to own them.
Alright. I see pictures of a 10mm casing with a hole in it. I hole that is typical of an unsupported chamber. But that is all I see.
What is the rest of the story? Assuming the casing was fired from a Glock, what is the story on the ammo? Was it new factory ammo or reloads?
What happened to the handgun? Was there damage? Was it an actual Kaboom?
If you are going to post pictures like that please include the facts that go with the pictures.
You are welcome to make whatever choices you wish. Even if that includes not buying Glocks based on that one casing. But for me I have been very happy with the Glocks I have owned over the years and will continue to own them.
lee n. field
Member
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- Dec 29, 2002
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- 4,310
The rectangular impression from the firing pin strike -- If the second picture was of the same caseing, it was.
wally
Member
dasmi said:
Cropping so we see the brass at high resolution and don't see the table top is what needs to be done. Simply resizing will not show the detail he wants it the brass because of all the pixels used for the table top.
If you don't have a photo editor software, you can download the GIMP (Gnu Image Manipulation Program) for free www.gimp.org Its available for most popular systems and almost as good as Adobe Photoshop.
--wally.
FPrice
Member
Thge following is why I sold my Glock 23 and will not buy another .40 Glock. But in all fairness, this was early Federal brass and was not as strong as the current brass.
Rexrider
Member
lee n. field said:
Yes, your right, my bad.
I can't even use the excuse that the picture was too small to see it clearly
atblis
Member
The case wasn't comprimised
Those were new factory rounds. The brass is now worthless though.
There wasn't a hole in the brass. It was just bulged really badly. I've never been able to duplicate that with the Witness with anything I've managed to cram in there. That was the worst bulge I've ever seen. Every case did that. Not just one (so I think we can rule out setback).
The 17 is a fantastic pistol. You just need to get another barrel for the 20. Spending $500+ on a pistol and then needing to get an aftermarket barrel to make it safe is kinda pathetic.
I was thinking about getting a 20, but having to get another barrel bothers me.
Those were new factory rounds. The brass is now worthless though.
There wasn't a hole in the brass. It was just bulged really badly. I've never been able to duplicate that with the Witness with anything I've managed to cram in there. That was the worst bulge I've ever seen. Every case did that. Not just one (so I think we can rule out setback).
The 17 is a fantastic pistol. You just need to get another barrel for the 20. Spending $500+ on a pistol and then needing to get an aftermarket barrel to make it safe is kinda pathetic.
I was thinking about getting a 20, but having to get another barrel bothers me.
atblis
Member
There! You happy now?
Yes it was Glock.
No they were not reloads.
Glocks have some issues (perfection my ass).
Yes it was Glock.
No they were not reloads.
Glocks have some issues (perfection my ass).
Texshooter
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
- Messages
- 481
Glocks indeed have some issues. Not the least of which is being honest with their customers.
As stated above, "perfection my ass."
As stated above, "perfection my ass."
MTMilitiaman
Member
That's funny. My 20 has never done that. I am shooting Double Tap almost exclussively. That's a 180 gr FMJ @ 1250 fps. The 180 gr GDHP @ 1300 look pretty much the same. Nothing to sneeze at. Tell Mike McNett you need another barrel for the Glock 20. It is my understanding that he has fired thousands of rounds for testing and development of his ammunition through a stock Glock 20. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the standard Glock barrels unless you want to try handloading the 10mm into something atomic--and then a good argument could be made that the problem is again with the ammunition. The 10mm Auto is perfectly capable on its own without you trying to turn it into something it isn't. If you feel the need to replace the standard Glock barrel with something that offers more support, by all means, go for it. You still have a nice polymer framed 10mm Auto with less cost than an HK or SIG in a lesser cartridge. But don't go around thinking that you need a new barrel. No sir, you only want a new barrel because of percieved deficencies in the standard barrel.
Glock may have issues--with all that reliability, and that damn Tennifer making it so durable and corrosion resistant. And the things are so simple, and all that magazine capacity. Geez. I wonder why the things are so popular since they suck so much
But lets please leave your ass out of this
Glock may have issues--with all that reliability, and that damn Tennifer making it so durable and corrosion resistant. And the things are so simple, and all that magazine capacity. Geez. I wonder why the things are so popular since they suck so much
But lets please leave your ass out of this
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MachIVshooter
Member
middy said:Yeah, because no other handgun has partial chamber support...
Your point would be valid if we were talking about .45 ACP, but 10mm is a whole different animal. Kimber, S&W, Dan Wesson, Tanfoglio all use fully supported chambers in their 10mm models.
I own a Kimber, S&W 1006 and Witness Compact 10mm and none of them have ever ejected a case that looked like that (FWIW, my loads run 180 grain pills at 1406 FPS from the 5" guns and 1342 from the Witness' 3.5" tube). I use all makes of brass with my loads and none have ever exhibited such failure. This is a Glock problem.
On a similar note, I have found that reloading brass fired from a Glock does not work well in other pistols. The Glock's chamber design and sloppy tolerance causes excessive case head expansion past the furthest reach of the resizing die. I got rid of my Glock 22 some time ago in favor of a S&W 4006.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Those manufactures probably put full case support on their .45 barrels too. The Glock chamber specs are still within SAAMI limitations. And they are cut loose to increase reliability. It is only a problem for people simple enough to be pursuaded by Internet gossip. The Glock is probably one of, if not the more durable 10mms on the market, and is almost without a doubt among the most reliable pistols of any caliber that you can buy at any price. But if it means that much to you, get an aftermarket barrel for it. Even with the new barrel it will still run you less than most of those other brands.
atblis
Member
Internet Gossip
Where would you find that? On a message board? Nahhh
The pictures really dont do the case justice. It looks much worse in person. I like to reload. IMO that brass is toast. What would a touch of setback do? Can anybody say Kaboom?
Where would you find that? On a message board? Nahhh
The pictures really dont do the case justice. It looks much worse in person. I like to reload. IMO that brass is toast. What would a touch of setback do? Can anybody say Kaboom?
Grayrider
Member
Atblis,
I am glad you posted this as I sold my G20 recently. No regrets now after seeing your pics. My Witness Match in 10mm took its place. I am still tempted by a polymer 10mm though. Maybe I should drop some cash on a Witness P series and just see how they run.
GR
I am glad you posted this as I sold my G20 recently. No regrets now after seeing your pics. My Witness Match in 10mm took its place. I am still tempted by a polymer 10mm though. Maybe I should drop some cash on a Witness P series and just see how they run.
GR
I think maybe there is something wrong with either that ammo, the brass, or your gun, like someone else said, possibly firing slightly out of battery? I have a G20 and G29 with stock barrels, and have ran lots of super hot, in fact, well past published data for BlueDot and Power Pistol loads, and have never seen anything like that.
I also have a Witness and 1006 in 10mm, both a nice guns, but the Witness isnt as reliable as the G20/G29, and the 1006 is much lower capacity and has a horrible grip to me. There are lots of G20s out there that fire alot of hot rounds with no problems, so I think there is something else going on here.
EDIT: All makes put out a few lemons, everyone seems to love the 10mm Witness, but mine is unreliable, so I wouldnt recommend one of those.
I also have a Witness and 1006 in 10mm, both a nice guns, but the Witness isnt as reliable as the G20/G29, and the 1006 is much lower capacity and has a horrible grip to me. There are lots of G20s out there that fire alot of hot rounds with no problems, so I think there is something else going on here.
EDIT: All makes put out a few lemons, everyone seems to love the 10mm Witness, but mine is unreliable, so I wouldnt recommend one of those.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Grayrider said:Atblis,
I am glad you posted this as I sold my G20 recently. No regrets now after seeing your pics. My Witness Match in 10mm took its place. I am still tempted by a polymer 10mm though. Maybe I should drop some cash on a Witness P series and just see how they run.
GR
Whatever
If you guys are so simple as to be that easily pursuaded to abandon an entire design because of a single incident, then you deserve to be cheated out of fantastic handguns. We don't even have the full details and I already showed examples to prove that not only does this not happen with all Glock 20s, but indeed, it is rather rare. I say it is rather sad, pathetic actually that people can be this gullable and this jaded towards a design. But whatever. Your loss.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The Bulge
Anybody wanna hear the real explanation on what caused this? Ah'm yuh Huckleberry! Anybody who may be annoyed, please skip the following comments...
No denying that Glocks have less than ideal head support at the bottom of the chamber. All it takes is a quick peek to see it. There are also several 1911-pattern pistols that have been subject to over-zealous barrel ramping/throating that have even less case head support in that area.
Some bulge case heads and some don't...just like the Glocks.
Why do some bulge or even blow case heads while others don't? Well, ammo plays a role in the occurrence. Some brass has a thicker area just forward of the web than others. Those will withstand higher pressures without bulging...or at least not bulging to this level. Federal will bulge more readily
than PMC or Winchester. Not a cheap shot at Federal...just a fact.
Some cases are tougher than others, but that in itself isn't the determining factor, nor is the reduced head support common to Glock and other designs.
Headspace is...or rather, excessive headspace that is excessive in the wrong direction. (See the sticky at the top of the gunsmithing page for an explanation)
When headspace is excessive...or even close to maximum in the wrong direction, two critical things occur when the gun is fired. First, and most critical is that the breech opens partially as the slide is slammed rearward under pressure, while the barrel is nailed full forward. If headspace is excessive, a gap opens between barrel and slide. It's not much of a gap...but it's sometimes enough to cause the case head to become dangerously unsupported.
The next thing that happens is that the case...under full chamber pressure and not having the slide's solid support at the rear...backs out of the chamber until it contacts the slide again, and stops. If the combination of undercut barrel throat and excessive headspace is such that the thin section ahead of the web becomes completely unsupported, you have a bulge. In worst-case scenarios...and/or with thin brass...you have a case failure, aka blowout, aka ka-boom.
A case failure at the head isn't the real danger in modern semi-auto pistols.
Most take it in stride, sometimes with the occasional bulged magazine. The dangerous part comes when the hot gasses and shards of brass vent into the magazine and cause sympathetic detonation of more rounds withing the confines of the magazine and grip frame. Fingers and eyes can literally be lost to the ages.
If you experience bulged cases, have somebody check the headspace before proceeding.
Cheers!
Anybody wanna hear the real explanation on what caused this? Ah'm yuh Huckleberry! Anybody who may be annoyed, please skip the following comments...
No denying that Glocks have less than ideal head support at the bottom of the chamber. All it takes is a quick peek to see it. There are also several 1911-pattern pistols that have been subject to over-zealous barrel ramping/throating that have even less case head support in that area.
Some bulge case heads and some don't...just like the Glocks.
Why do some bulge or even blow case heads while others don't? Well, ammo plays a role in the occurrence. Some brass has a thicker area just forward of the web than others. Those will withstand higher pressures without bulging...or at least not bulging to this level. Federal will bulge more readily
than PMC or Winchester. Not a cheap shot at Federal...just a fact.
Some cases are tougher than others, but that in itself isn't the determining factor, nor is the reduced head support common to Glock and other designs.
Headspace is...or rather, excessive headspace that is excessive in the wrong direction. (See the sticky at the top of the gunsmithing page for an explanation)
When headspace is excessive...or even close to maximum in the wrong direction, two critical things occur when the gun is fired. First, and most critical is that the breech opens partially as the slide is slammed rearward under pressure, while the barrel is nailed full forward. If headspace is excessive, a gap opens between barrel and slide. It's not much of a gap...but it's sometimes enough to cause the case head to become dangerously unsupported.
The next thing that happens is that the case...under full chamber pressure and not having the slide's solid support at the rear...backs out of the chamber until it contacts the slide again, and stops. If the combination of undercut barrel throat and excessive headspace is such that the thin section ahead of the web becomes completely unsupported, you have a bulge. In worst-case scenarios...and/or with thin brass...you have a case failure, aka blowout, aka ka-boom.
A case failure at the head isn't the real danger in modern semi-auto pistols.
Most take it in stride, sometimes with the occasional bulged magazine. The dangerous part comes when the hot gasses and shards of brass vent into the magazine and cause sympathetic detonation of more rounds withing the confines of the magazine and grip frame. Fingers and eyes can literally be lost to the ages.
If you experience bulged cases, have somebody check the headspace before proceeding.
Cheers!
atblis
Member
Double Tap
I would guess that DT uses Starline. Though the lettering looks like Hornady (WHo makes Hornady's brass anyways?).
I would guess that DT uses Starline. Though the lettering looks like Hornady (WHo makes Hornady's brass anyways?).
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