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IDPA 2018 Equipment Survey

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by alfsauve, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I’d also include reloading in with that.

    It took me 6 years shooting 3 matches a week for the first 4, averaging 65,000 and change rounds a year to become a 5 gun Master and place 1st MA at Nationals.

    There were lots of shooters that felt the same way and they changed the rules to force faster shooters to slow down (actually stop). Ran off lots of folks when they did. They have since switched back.

    I never did understand how handicapping the best makes the rest better.

    As above there are a hand full where shooting is their “job”. They get the division champion trophy and you get 1st. At least I got to beat Jerry Miculek on a few stages. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  2. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    The Black Bullets, Precision Bullets, Bear Creek and Black Bullet International (before they changed their formula) were all moly coated. It was a powdery coating and very messy. Once Bayou Bullets started with their hard green coating the other coated bullet companies popped up.
     
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  3. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    How many people would that actually ban? Vogel is a pro, because he teaches full time now. Same with Seeklander. Who else would you consider a Pro? The truth is the IDPA rulebook and culture has already done what you suggest, keep the real shooters away.
     
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  4. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Bingo..
     
  5. rskent

    rskent Member

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    Let me get this straight. You want to ban the shooters at the top of your sport? The shooters that most all of the other shooters in your sport can learn from and become better because of? Must be a pistol thing.
     
  6. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I think this is more an IDPA thing than a general pistol thing. USPSA, IPSC, Steel-Challenge, Bianchi Cup, etc are pretty big on their "pros." This will slip into IDPA bashing real quick if we are not careful and despite what I am about to type I sort of enjoy IDPA especially in light of the most recent rule changes but my local club has quit hold matches.

    Given my experience shooting both USPSA and IDPA I see three way internal conflict going on in IDPA and it negatively effects its performance as a practical pistol sport. IDPA spun out of IPSC/USPSA*, as IPSC had become a sport, that though it had origins in defensive pistol use, had dropped much of that pretense as it tried to become a very competitive sport and as a result an equipment race resulted. IDPA was to be a return to the roots and it did so but not without a lot of latent angst for IPSC**. So the first faction of the internal conflict are those that still hate on IPSC. The next internal faction is those that want IDPA to be "real world" training and a sport secondarily. And the third internal faction are those that like the integration of "real world" training as applicable/possible but realize that has to sit second fiddle to creating a fun, fair and competitive sport.

    So between the angst for IPSC and the two different priorities on the sport aspect it makes for a mess in the sport and you can feel it in the rules** and at the matches.

    *just use IPSC to represent both IPSC and USPSA . They are different but the differences are pretty small compared to the differences between those two sports and IDPA.

    ** You can see thinly veiled angst even in the rule book especially reading a rule book from a revision or two ago. There are aspect of IDPA rules that are the way they are simple because they could not bear to copy IPSC even though it was serving the same purpose. And as a pet peeve of mine IDPA needs to hire someone that writes rules for a living (stick and ball games, board games, RPGs, something) to go through the IDPA rule book and create consistent and logical language/verbiage and rule structure. The poorly written rule book does not help the sport any. I like the sport but it needs help.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  7. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    Definitely this.
     
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  8. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    As a non-IDPA person, I always find the eternal struggle to make IDPA "realistic" pretty funny. You want realism in your self-defense pistol game? OK, here are the stages:

    Stage one: Coffee Run. You walk into your neighborhood coffee joint to grab a gallon of wake-up juice on your way to a day of errand-running. Keep your IWB gun from printing and freaking out the soccer mom behind you when you bend over to grab a bag of almonds from the bottom shelf.
    Stage two: The park. You attend a birthday party for your nephew in a public park. You would like to carry. Figure out how to carry in an environment where you will be hugged, perhaps by surprise, by several children whose arms and chest naturally end up around your waist.
    Stage three: The Beggar. You are approached by a foul-smelling adult male wearing shabby clothing. He is evidently inebriated, mentally ill, or both. He is larger than you, and begins loudly declaiming how "rich dudes like you" are the cause of all his trouble. Figure out how to calmly move away from the situation without drawing your gun (and a brandishing charge).
    Stage four: The Improbable. Note: Only one participant in the match will be selected to shoot this stage. Upon start signal, draw and engage T1. Spend the next 12 hours being questioned about your decision to do so. This stage will be scored 2 to 88 weeks later.
    .
    Does any of that sound like fun to you? Yeah, me neither. I'd rather play a good game that has a side-effect of enhancing certain potentially-useful skills than play a lousy game that realistically tracks life.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2018
  9. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    lol. Accurate.


    I have only shot 1 IDPA match in the last year but when I was doing it more often I liked to hit people with the "Sorry, you died. Go pack your stuff at the safe table and we'll see you next week" penalty once in a while, just to see their reaction.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2018
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  10. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

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    I suspect but cannot prove this but I think that most of the top shooters that wear colorful shirts would skip IDPA all together if the those entities on their shirts would allow them to.

    Having said that when I first started shooting handguns I immediately started shooting competitions and chose IDPA because in theory it has a lower cost to start. Within 6 months I was shooting in a sanctioned match which had a fairly expensive entry fee and travel cost. Long story short I earned my first DQ. Although the back story is detailed, the immediate result caused me to almost give up handguns. I didn't shoot in any kind of match for almost a year after.

    But for every dark cloud there is a silver lining. To regain my composure, acquire some personal confidence and salvage my reputation I decided on a long term soul search to define goals and get more in tune with the actual mechanics and theory of this type of gun handling. It was during my self-imposed down time I made the switch from auto loaders to revolver.

    For me personally revolver has been both a competition "life saver" and humbling experience as I have absolutely no natural talent shooting them. I harbor no ill-will with respect to my early experience noted above, actually it has helped in the long run and I insist on taking responsibility for my actions. But it did help me to see things more clearly which I probably wouldn't have been able to do if not for said experience. Not sure if this is accurate or not but I think I read somewhere that Julie Golob was DQed at her first match or early in her competition career.
     
  11. egd

    egd Member

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    IDPA would be a lot more fun if they didn't have such unrealistic "realistic" rules. Like, I'm in a gunfight but I can only load 10 rounds and I can't drop a mag to reload unless it's empty. Yeah. Right.
    I will say though, I really like their scoring system much better than USPSA. It's so much easier to understand.
     
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  12. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Points-per-second shouldn't be hard to understand. The math is harder (division, yo'), but the tablets do all that now.

    Are you talking about match point allocation?
     
  13. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    The 1 second per point rule is what absolutely killed the sport.
     
  14. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    What is it with the continual IDPA bashing?
    I was there for the IPSC Gamesman vs Martial Artist debates. The Gamesmen won so thoroughly that there are few if any Martial Artists left to criticize, so they have jumped on IDPA, only nastier. Why? It's not even the same organization.
     
  15. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I think you'd be a bit off.

    The colorful shirts play different roles in different sports. In IDPA I've seen that "shirted" folks usually have closer ties to local training outfits who's main focus is Defensive Training...as opposed to competition training.

    IDPA, at least my local matches, is seen as a lower cost starting point as it requires fewer magazines, fewer rounds, and a gun that a starter is more likely to already own.
     
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  16. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    The 10 round rule is in part to make matches equal across the magazine limitation states. When the Great God Kavanaugh leads SCOTUS to eliminate magazine bans, IDPA can revisit that. Just hold your breath.

    In our club matches, we let you shoot outlaw and load your handgun to full capacity. In a way, I don't mind the limit as it helps me practice reloads in a mildly stressful situation. You do see folks fumble them and/or not seat a mag. Doesn't hurt to practice such.

    IDPA is becoming more game like with those silly sticks for cover as I've seen folks almost fall and do fall over them. They allow in some circumstances for you to stand in the open (cover?). I know it was because of the top competitor whine fest over subjective cover calls and/or range tyrants harassing folks over millimeter cover exposures.

    The reload situation is based on hypothetical views of 'gunfight reloads'. Tac reloads - never seems to happen in real life. I had one match were a malfunction screw up was resolved by getting the used mag back into the run.

    It's a game. I won't win - so let the guys in the yellow bumble bee shirts with logos have fun. The only prizes I get are from raffle drawings.
     
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  17. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    That is one stated reason NOW.
    The original purpose of the 10 round limit was to comply with the national AWB which banned American Commoners from buying new full capacity magazines. It was the LAW. Everywhere.

    Two things about the AWB surprised me.
    First, that it was allowed to expire after its statutory 10 year run.
    Second, that the BATF did not run a sting operation and prosecute people for manufacturing "high capacity ammunition feeding devices" from "replacement parts." Seems like it would have been easy when vendors were selling "replacement parts" with every single piece of a 20 shot magazine in the same baggie.
     
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  18. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I think one of the best things we could do for our republic would be to require new laws impacting individual behavior to have sunset provisions. Want a new restriction on people? OK, if you get a majority we can try it... but it's going to have to be affirmatively agreed-to again every 5 (or 10 or whatever) years. It can't just continue in perpetuity with its own inertia.
     
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  19. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    SF story about the very rational Camroi. Only 1000 laws allowed on the books. Propose a new law, you must say which old one is to be repealed. No portmanteau legislation covering multiple subjects allowed, either. All bills must pass not only equivalents of House and Senate, but also the Chamber of Dunces. Somewhat of a misnomer, the members of the Chamber of Dunces weren't dumb, they were just not lawyers. Its only function was to pass on the comprehensibility of a bill, not its provisions.
     
  20. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Jim's points are well taken. One should recall that the president at the time said he would sign a renewal of the AWB if it got to his desk. Guess who? I had a friend say that was clever politics as he could be anti and pro gun at the same time as he knew it wouldn't get to his desk. I regarded that as morally indefensible because if the AWB actually saved lives (no evidence for it), then he should have come out full bore for the renewal and fight to get it to his desk. If he opposed it on RKBA grounds, then he should have not resorted to subterfuge to make sure it didn't pass. Oh, well. Politicians are politicians.

    We are wandering off topic though, my fault in part. Let's turn back to the equipment survey. I propose we ban company logos and form fitting shirts on giant overlap bellies at USPSA. :rofl:
     
  21. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    I started in IDPA and regularly shot both for a long time. I feel the current leaders have ruined the sport that I once enjoyed. That's why.
     
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  22. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

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    I was referring to those with "big" sponsors such as gun makers.
     
  23. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I have shot USPSA since 2005 and at all levels from club matches to one appearance at a National Match. I have only ever shot IDPA at the club level. For every IDPA match I have shot I have probably shot 10+ USPSA matches.

    Unfortunately we are falling into opinion now. I thought the latest (2017) rule changes to IDPA made is about as good and enjoyable as I have experienced it. Though, IMHO it still has a ways to go I thought it was getting better but that opinion only pertains to the rules as I have not been involved enough to have visibility on problems above the club level.
     
  24. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Some of us have cool shirt just because a bunch of us got together and designed a cool Techwear shirt cause we like them. At my former club back in Ohio a bunch of us had matching Techwear jerseys made with the club logo and our names and we even managed to get a few small sponsors. Though sponsorship that was mostly allowing us to use their logo (with conditions) and they gave us a small discount (some a one time only discount) on their products but hey we had cool looking Jerseys to wear like a team to the larger matches. Most of the time I just wear the Techware or similar shirt I got at a match staff shirt for working as an RO at a previous large match.
     
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  25. egd

    egd Member

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    As for math in uspsa. I totally understand the points per second, that's easy enough. It's the % business with points for match standing that I don't get. As an example-last weekend at our local match, I had total time that was faster and more A hits (me=90.79, 91-A,6-B,9-C him=92.67, 83-A, 7-B,16-C, nothing lower for either of us) but he was just ahead of me with points of 328.6 and I had 322.4

    Even if one does understand it, it's still way more complicated than it needs to be.
    All that said, I still love uspsa.
     
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