IDPA rule changes.

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Weshoot. That sucks. I agree with you on that. I don't see any problems with fiberoptic sights. To me anything that you would normally carry should be fine. (but then some doofus will jump in and claim to carry a C-More so I guess you can't win).

Andrew, is Bakersfield in Kern County? I was under the impression that that is one of the counties in California where the Sheriff will actually issue permits. (same as Merced, my home county).
 
I shoot both IPSC/USPSA and IDPA.

I agree that IDPA has more rules and restrictions on how the game is played however it’s still a lot of fun, kinda like playing chess with handguns. :) IPSC/USPSA, on the other hand, is a full tilt boogie, heart pounding adrenalin rush. :D .
:what:
 
Bakersfield city does not issue permits and i'm not 21 yet.

I think it would be nice to have a set of rules that allows for people to use conbat worthy equipment, even if it carries more than 10 rounds or is purple and has a magazine funnel on it.
 
Allow kneepads to be used as discretionary safety equipment. The current rules only allow you to wear them underneath your full length pants so what if you decide to wear shorts that day because it is 105 in the shade.
 
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Ryucasta, good point.

On the no knee pad rule I heard somebody justify it by saying that you should be wearing what you would actually wear in real combat. :D By that logic I would most likely be in my underwear, with no eye protection or hearing protection and shooting down my hallway.

If they are going to have the rule that says you must take and knee instead of allowing you to squat then knee pads should be fine. Lot of folks use them in 3 gun, but that is a lot more physical game, but still. (One other sucky thing about the illogic of kneeling being more "tactical" than squating, what happens when you take a knee in that proverbial dark alley and it happens to come down on a rusty nail or broken bottle?)
 
I wear kneepads under my khakis for IDPA (Seldom wear shorts with or without kneepads, it isn't a pretty sight.) I figure they are protective SPORTS equipment just like my safety glasses and ear muffs, neither of which I wear "on the street." Neither do I expect to be involved in 14 gunfights on my way to the grocery store.

I figure the knee down requirement is more an administrative convenience than a representation of effective tactics or technique. It is easier for the SO to see you have a knee down than to be sure you are squatting low enough to be adequately using that oil drum for cover. And if IDPA is all the tactical training and practice you get, kneeling on a bottle in an alley may be the least of your worries.
 
I do not have a problem with knee pads. I think they should be in the same venue as ear and eye protection, safety equipment. Like Mr. Watson said, I do not get into 12 to 16 gunfights in any given day.
 
I didn't even know about the knee pad rules until someone pointed it out. I think that is a perfect example of the rules not being logical.
 
They are both games I like IPSC better but the IDPA is shoots more closer to the house. If IDPA would just stop saying "IN THE REAL WORLD" that just burns me every time. And the "GET SHOT IN THE HEAD WHILE I RELOAD, RELOAD". All most forgot one, "you can't move when reloading" why? I better stop.
I forget the tac-reload most of the time.
 
What burns me is that in both organizations, the Gamesman drive the rulemaking process. In IPSC, it's because the sport caters to them, but in IDPA, the rulemaking process is designed to cripple them. If they set out some rules that were designed around more combatworthy weapons instead of crippling gamesmen, then I'd be more inclined to shoot it.
 
Andrew,
Have you ever shot IDPA?
Have you ever been to an IDPA match?
Or just read the complainers' posts on your computer?
Just wondering, I see plenty of "combatworthy weapons" the places I shoot.

I once had a purple gun. I am now sorry I had it refinished plain blue. My CDP and ESP guns have magazine (well) funnels, as allowed in the rules.

"Open carry from a field type holster?"
No.
You just have to pretend you are a free adult and operate as though your rulers allowed you to carry a concealed weapon.

"Carries more than 10 rounds?"
Forget about it.
IT IS AGAINST THE LAW FOR AN AMERICAN TO POSSESS A MAGAZINE HOLDING MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS MADE AFTER 1994.
Bill Wilson organized IDPA in 1996. He elected not to put us in the position of having to choose between paying astronomical prices for pre-ban magazines or committing a felony by assembling high-capacity ammunition feeding devices from "replacement tubes." I don't like the law but I think he made the right policy decision.

If you don't like the above, try IPSC. You can have as many rounds in the gun as a magazine 140 or 170 mm long (depending on the Division) will hold. And they will not ask any questions about where you got it. You can use any holster that will keep the gun off the ground. You can wear a bikini.
And don't get the idea that the "gamesmen" are taking anything away from you. They are mostly excellent shots, fast on their feet, who can analyze the layout to shoot it in the most efficient manner. And many of them will tell you how to do it, too! They, like any other sport, want competitiors, not suckers.

There is no set of rules that can be written that will let you win without knowing what you are doing.
 
As for combat worthy weapons, I wouldn't want to get into a gunfight with a master class shooter from ANY of the shooting sports. Seriously.

We need to keep in mind that all of these things are games. If your choice of game also happens to help you practice more realistically, more power to you.

Personally I think that the sport that has helped me most with tactics is Paintball. :)
 
Yeah Jim, I think it is a safe bet to say Andy has been to a Match or two in the major shooting disciplines, IDPA, IPSC, and 3 gun.

As far as highcaps being illegal to own if they were made after 94, who cares? There are litterally TONS of preban mags out there. It is just a matter of how much you want to spend. People should not be penalized because they refuse to be cheap. I say run what ya brung. Got a Glock 17 but only use 10 round mags cause you dont want to pay the highcap prices, fine. You are still better off than the guy who runs a 1911. But if you choose to pay the price, you should not get kneecapped but a policy that is "supposed" to level the playing field. The better shooters will always win, but you could at least still shoot like you carry.

Personally, 3 gun is the way to go for me. They let you run what you brung and kneecap you for your choices.

Now if I can find a decent 3 gun match in my area....
 
*shrug* i find it silly to change how i fight because someone else wants to "level the playing field".

If someone whants to shoot a pink STI with a mag well, fine.

I fail to understand how a gun that's reliable, doesn't use batteries, is accurate, is concealable and is adequitely powerful isn't suitable for "street" use.

I think IDPA (and IPSC) rules are missing the point, in that they require a person to possibly use equipment they would not have with them when they are in a situation that their matches simulate.

What people end up with is a situation where their carry guns are different from their "IDPA" guns, and I think that invalidates any possible training use IDPA has.

It should be a given that matches aren't your only training, but they should reenforce what training you do have.
 
NJ, I am neither. I am a simple soldier who loves to shoot. But I also like to shoot in a manner that does not conflict with my training. Sure I am competitive and like to win, but for me staying alive is more important.

Fellowship and the commaradery that is built on the range is great, I really enjoy it. I enjoy running the lanes and putting down steel. But when I get penalized because I broke some stupid gamer rule for conducting myself like I have been trained to do, and get some twit who cries because he didn't choose to spend the money I did, it kind of kills the whole experience for me. I would rather worry about hitting the steel than focusing on wether I am about to break some rule made to keep a "level playing field".

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your planning sucked.


One of the big things I noticed that set apart the 3-gun match from the IPSC and IDPA matches was the REAL pros couldn't care less what you brought. They knew they could smoke you with a Lorcin. But they spent more time than anyone of us would have dreamed in teaching us new guys better methods and tactics for what we were using. Those guys bent over backwards to help us out. I haven't found that at the few IDPA matches I have been to so far.

I didn't get into this thread to piss and moan about why I dont like IDPA or IPSC. I originally got into it to see if there was a way for the people who carry guns daily, or in a professional capacity to get a new catagory. Or if there was another competition that catered to those groups. But I also felt justified in listing my specific complaints, maybe find a compromise to them. If you like IDPA or IPSC, great. I like IDPA just fine. But I am looking for something with more flexability and more realism.
 
Somebody kick this horse I thinks its dead! By the way what do you shooters think will happen in IDPA and IPSC production class if the sunset on the hi-cap ban goes away in 2004?
 
Pyle - If you are military you can shoot USPSA with your duty gear. Holster still has to pretty much point at the ground. No crossdraw or tanker type holsters. I see some pretty eclectic guns come out to our local matches. Also there are usually two-four IPSC GM around and they are they most helpful shooters, with lots of free advice. (Well except for one very young GM, hasn't learned the humility gig yet). We now see a lot of the local IDPA gang show up, and they shoot their IDPA stuff, but they drop their mags and don't use cover much. Fun is had by all.

3 gun. Many are run by a sanctioned club and they tend to do things either USPSA or IDPA style. I personally prefer the USPSA type. I see all types of guns at these, the only person we made fun of was the guy with the tac vest, shorty 870 that he short-stroked every time and M-14 that he could miss 70yd plates with. One fella shot a Beretta pistol, stock AR, and 870 with no mag extension or anything. finished 4th overall of about 70. Marine FAST platoon leader, go figure. Smmmmoooth SG reloads. I have shot some 3-gun with a Mosin M-44, plan more. Nobody laughs. Soon as I get enough mags I'm shooting my Kahr MK-40 in a match, oughta be a long day.

The Blamer vs. gamer thing was aimed at no one in particular, sometimes we all fall in those traps. I don't see it necessary to be a "gamer" but I try very hard to stay out of the "blamer" category. It's a symptom of our society where everything is somebody else's fault.
 
I have never seen a USPSA match in our area. I would be interested in giving that a go if I could find one. Andy, was the match you guys put on for us using USPSA rules?
 
Pyle, the USPSA=IPSC. The US shows that it is the American version of the International PSC. :) Those guys shoot in Salt Lake at the PMAA range. I believe 3rd saturday. That last match I told you about was USPSA rules.

Andy's crew use their own set of rules, when you hear competitors talking about SOF or WC rules that is what they are talking about.

No good 3 guns in your area? Ouch. I take that personally. I think that we put on a good 3 gun. We run about 50 shooters through 9 or 10 diverse and fun stages and get people done by 3:00. I'm pretty proud of that.

Since I've become a match director I have heard complaints from EVERY angle. To military. Not military enough. To hard. To easy. More round count. Less round count. Don't like IDPA style scoring, it penalizes guys who shoot bigger rifles (being one of the only guys who normally shoots a .308 and WINS the fricking rifle stages I have no pity for somebody whining about that). We not more physical challenges. This ain't a track meet. I want to run around more. I'm old I can't run. On and on and on.l It don't matter I can't make everybody happy.

However we do manage to make most people happy, and we run one of the most popular matches in Utah. The next one is March 15th. I'm the match director for that one. Going to have 10 stages. Hope it is fun.

And getting back to equipment, in the USPSA 3 gun I just shot in I won the shotgun stage with a pump 870, 18 inch barrel, bead sights, and 2 shot extension. I beat guys with 10 shot Benellis, 1100s, speed loaders, vang comps, porting, you name it. Kind of good for the ego. :)
 
I didn't know that Andy's group ran their own rules, I thought those were the normal 3-gun rules and you ran IDPA (which you do) rules. Dont take it personally, you dont make the rules.
 
speaking of 3-gun matches in the salt lake area...

Did you read my PM, PvtPyle?

Dad's still talking about doing one up there.


as for the rules, they were pretty much made up by the (swat) WC3gun staff, and aren't those of any other organization (to my knowledge).


I may be biased, but i think the WC3gun rules for pistol make good sense, because they allow you to carry in an open carry field type holster or a concealment type rig.

this means that for a pistol stage like "mcdonald's lobby" which takes place in the simulated lobby of a fast food place, you can wear your concealment rig and get a chance to learn its faults and yours while dealing with an urban pistol problem.

on the obverse side of the coin, on a problem like the one Richard CRO'd for this last year, whose name escapes me, which is obviously an outdoor field scenario, you have the choice of using a flap holster or other open carry rig, which is argueably what you'd have with you if you were outside city limits.


IDPA doesn't allow me to do that, and i think that's a fault.
I still want to shoot it, because I have a suitable holster for it.
I'd like to shoot from a flap holster, bbecause that's what i'd probably use if i ever needed to use a pistol, but It won't kill me to learn how to shoot from concealed.
 
Now we are confusing IDPA rules with 3 gun rules. At our local 3 gun we use IDPA scoring, and IDPA paper targets, but the equipment rules are pretty much wide open.

Andrew, what does your dad have in mind?
 
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