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If EPA ever bans lead ammo, what will substitute lead? Aluminum alloy?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by sharpshooter74, Aug 27, 2010.

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  1. sharpshooter74

    sharpshooter74 Member

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    Do we really need lead? Can we bypass lead?
     
  2. HGUNHNTR

    HGUNHNTR Member

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    There are already a plethora of copper bullets on the market, that seems the logical choice.
     
  3. Legionnaire
    • Contributing Member

    Legionnaire Member

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    The alternatives to lead are much more expensive. And regulations ban some of the alternatives (steel, etc.) as "armor piercing." Seems to me this is gun control by stealth.
     
  4. jlott00

    jlott00 Member

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  5. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    The EPA can't do this. Don't even worry about it.
     
  6. Strahley

    Strahley Member

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    rm23; expound?
     
  7. THe Dove

    THe Dove BOOMER SOONER!!!

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    See the thread in the activism section for indepth discussion.

    The Dove
     
  8. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    The head honcho will be making her decision the day before the election. This is a VERY real threat - if it passes most gun ranges and clubs will be nothing but a memory. When your shooting costs triple or quadruple, how much are you going to be shooting. There are threads about this on EVERY gun forum - most have the article with the link to send an email - not just the EPA, but your elected officials as well
     
  9. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    The Toxic Substances Control Act specifically exempts lead ammo.
     
  10. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    The EPA's decision would have to go before the Supreme Court because, legally, they lack the authority to regulate lead ammo. The law specifically exempts that from regulation.
     
  11. StoneDog

    StoneDog Member

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    I don't believe we can bypass lead. It will drive ammo prices through the roof, which in my opinion, is the very intent of this thinly veiled gun control attempt. There is no scientific proof that lead ammo is a real threat to wildlife (unless you are SHOOTING at said wildlife).
     
  12. rm23

    rm23 Member

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  13. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    They're petitioning for a rule change to include lead in spite of the specific exclusion. The petition is open for public comment before consideration. EPA will then decide based on the comments received if they have the authority to make a rule change (debatable), if the rule change is scientifically valid to make (very debatable) and if there is undue economic harm in the rule change (very certainly). If the EPA's conclusions are that they do have the authority to make the change (as opposed to asking Congress to amend the legislation behind the rule to remove the exclusion of ammunition) and there's a scientific basis to make the change AND that undue economic harm won't be done by making the change then they'll face legal challenges and an injunction as the courts then decide whether the EPA has the authority/scientific basis/minimal economic impact for a rule change that fundamentally is a change in legislation.
     
  14. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Grab some lead now...
    Of course, I have turned all my lead over to the recyclers as a precaution... :D
    Seriously, one of the first things the Redcoats tried to was steal powder and SHOT, right? That would be ammunition, which is a part of "arms" as defined by the 2A and affirmed by SCOTUS, yes? Just curious.
     
  15. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    EPA rejected the petition in about 3 days! That's pretty definitive.
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/27/epa-rejects-calls-ban-lead-ammo-fishing-tackle/

     
  16. gun guy

    gun guy Member

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    Already some of the most expensive, best performing rifle bullets dont contain lead anyway. They took lead out of gas and cars got faster, with better gas mileage. They took lead out of paint. You can paint a room for about $12 still. Alot of duck hunting areas require steel shot now. People still seem to bag their limit of ducks. Lead has been shown to be a bad thing, thats proven. Why not do our part to keep lead out of watersheds, drinking water and food. Everytime someone suggests an improvement that is firearms related, all the old <conservatives> jump up and scream socialism. It's just change, and change is gonna happen, deal with it.
    On the list of things to worry about, lead free bullets isnt very high up.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2010
  17. bhk

    bhk Member

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    "Already some of the most expensive, best performing rifle bullets dont contain lead anyway. They took lead out of gas and cars got faster, with better gas mileage. Alot of duck hunting areas require steel shot now. People still seem to bag their limit of ducks.
    On the list of things to worry about, lead free bullets isnt very high up. "

    If you shoot significant amounts of ammo (recreation/competition) you may be totally forced out of the sport due to the costs. Hunting ammo may not be the biggest problem.
     
  18. Mags

    Mags Member

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    It is if shoot thousands of rounds a year, instead of using that box of 20 before hunting season to refamiliar yourself with your old dusty hunting rifle.

    I shoot only about 500- 1000 rounds a month and that pales in comparison to some shoot over 5000 a month, non-lead ammo would be very costly.
     
  19. Fat Boy

    Fat Boy Member

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    I keep wondering about the concept of buying a Ruger Old Army black powder revolver as sort of an ultimate backstop for a TEOTWAWKI scenario. I understand the need for bullets, typically? lead cast? Maybe that would shoot my idea in the foot, (pun intended :) if lead in bullets were outlawed. I guess I am thinking of the ability to "scrounge" material for melting down and casting into a bullet- a guy would still have to have a source for the caps, right?

    Just thinking out loud...
     
  20. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    And every time someone suggests and "improvement" that is firearms related, Fudds let it slide as long as it doesn't hurt their ability to bag some ducks or a buck a few times a year.

    Shooting activities encompass A LOT more than just hunting.
     
  21. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Depends upon whether you're asking just on technical or economic ground.

    Technically, yes we can easily stop using lead in bullets. Economically, no.

    Al, not really suitable because of low density.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  22. John Wayne

    John Wayne Member

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    There are many non-lead substitutes, but aluminum alloy has to be one of the worst possible ones. Still scratching my head over why you would want to use something so ill-suited to the task.

    Copper, brass, tungsten, and bismuth seem logical, if expensive, alternatives which would actually outpreform lead in most applications. Copper and brass jackets are already used on bullets, in addition to solid copper bullets. Tungsten and bismuth shot are common substitutes for lead loads for waterfowl hunting. Ammunition loaded with these rounds also costs upwards of 3x what the standard lead counterpart does.

    Most any heavy metal will work, including gold and silver. The problem is expense.
     
  23. Patriotme

    Patriotme Member

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    I wonder what the threat of banning lead will do to ammo prices.
    Here comes the panic buying.
     
  24. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    Please read hso's post at 6:21.
     
  25. LibShooter

    LibShooter Member

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    If lead in hunting ammo is causing problems (I'm doubtful) how about this compromise?

    In hunting or any situation in which the shooter can't predict exactly where the round will stop, lead may be phased out.

    But in "controlled" shooting (a range, for instance) lead can still be used. Indoor ranges can recycle the stuff that ends up in their backstops. Outdoor ranges would be required to control the stormwater runoff and dig up their berms every once in awhile to collect the lead.

    Folks who shoot on their private property are on their honor to keep the lead under control. You know, like used motor oil. :)
     
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