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If illegal immigration is so bad, then why doesnt anyone want to stop it?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Lone_Gunman, Aug 25, 2003.

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  1. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    A significant portion of our population seems happy to accept illegal immigration and not make any serious attempt to stop it.

    Democrats and Republicans both have weak stances on illegal immigration.

    They must have something to gain by illegal immigrants. If not, one side or the other would seem to oppose it.

    So, my only conclusion is that a large group of power brokers in this country benefit from illegal immigration somehow.

    Would you agree or disagree with this?

    Also, I am curious as to what the "libertarian" stance on illegal immigration is, or should be. Anyone able to elucidate that?
     
  2. tyme

    tyme Member

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    Libertarians are split on the issue. There are pro-sovereignity libertarians who advocate sealing borders except for closely monitored entry points. Then there are open-border libertarians who think that getting rid of entitlements and letting labor markets drive immigration would mostly solve the problem.

    The official LP position is pretty much open-borders. http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.html
     
  3. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    My experience is libertarians do an outstanding job of diagnosing a problem. Their performance in offering WORKABLE solutions is poor. And I refer to more than THR's homegrown libertarians. Talk radio in my city is infested with libertarian diagnosis but precious few solutions.

    Back to why nothing is done about illegal immigration? In a word, "Filthy Lucre." Too many people on all side of the political spectrum are making money by breaking the law. We have laws in place that will put a severe dent in illegal immigration yet all level of law enforcement refuse to enforce them. I think the bottom line is labor in the US is far too expensive to compete on a global scale. Everyone points to minimum wage as the boogie man. Minimum wage is a minor part of the problem. The real cost of US labor is in our health, environmental, safety, and litigation premium. Add human services costs of workman's comp, unemployment payments, medicare tax, social security, ad nauseum. All those costs simply disappear when the US company says, "We're outta here."

    Illegal immigration is symptomatic of the problem. Lots of costs of employment simply disappear when an illegal alien is hired. True costs of employment are shifted to the public sector and it is untraceable.

    There you have it. It pays to employ illegal aliens and at this point it is not traced back to the employers who break the law.

    I got another idea what is going on and it ain't got nuthin' to do with the new world order and tinfoil hats.
     
  4. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

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    Counterquestion:

    How do you propose to stop illegal immigration?

    As long as the richest country in the world borders one of the poorest ones, there will always be illegal immigrants. Turning the southern border into a new Iron Curtain is not only logistically impossible, but it would not work even if it was feasible.

    We have about 3,000 miles of land border with Mexico, and 10,000 miles of undefended coastline. Every single Border Patrol agent, and every single infantry soldier in the U.S.Army and USMC would not be enough to "seal the border". Remember that the Iron Curtain didn't prevent people from fleeing into West Germany, even though the East Germans had shoot-to-kill orders and no Constitution or Posse Comitatus.

    I keep hearing that our borders are "wide open", but I never hear how exactly we're supposed to close them. You cannot hermetically seal an open society like the United States...it's a logical, technical and logistical impossibility. If you have any proposals that don't involve machine-gunning migrants or using the fighting forces of the U.S. military as garrisoned border guards, let's hear it. I keep hearing about how the Libertarians "never offer workable solutions", but all the proposals I hear from the Ultra-Conservatives invariably include either wanting to turn the military into border police, or proposing to have Open Season on people who enter the country across the Rio Grande.
     
  5. cosmos7

    cosmos7 Member

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    Why exactly would shooting illegals that resist capture be a bad thing? I agree it'd be sad, but it would certainly be a better deterant than a hot meal and then putting back across the border to try again...
     
  6. GinSlinger

    GinSlinger Member

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    Why doesn't anyone stop it?

    Easy. Who would mow your grass (esp. in Beverly Hills), clean your hotel room, pick your apples, grapes, etc, work grunt day labor on job sites?

    This is not meant to sound prejudicee. It's economic. Would you think that the best job your son/daughter could possibly have is to mow grass? Well, there are plenty of ppls south of our border who do see that as a dream job.

    My question to ppl talking about unemployment: If there are no jobs in America then why are there still illegal border crossings happening every day? It's because there ARE jobs out there, they just don't pay an "American" wage.

    GinSlinger
     
  7. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    That explains about half of it—and explains it very well. The other half, as I perceive it, is that leftists trust illegal aliens will vote for representatives of the Democratic (sic) party, and I believe their trust isn't misplaced.

    The solution is simplity itself: fine each employer $100,000 for each illegal alien on the pay roll. Since the states are forever snivelling and whining about being broke, and since we don't have a $28,000,000,000 Department of Homeland Security to secure the borders, let the states go into the illegal aliens line of work, and keep the $100,000 per captured and deported illegal alien. I'm sure the People's Republic of California could take an enormous bite out of its budget problems in a year's time.
     
  8. Stinger

    Stinger Member

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    That is the question, isn't it. Marko Kloos, you are correct, we will never be able to keep everyone out. But would it be so bad if we tried to keep most of them out.

    Have you ever seen anyone illegally cross? I have. I saw 30-40 illegals cross at Del Rio, Texas. Yes, that's right, 30-40, in broad daylight. They walked across the bridge, then found a hole in the fence, and went on through. Perhaps 100 yards or so from the check point. I think that was about 6-7 years ago. That was one instance, in one place, in one day. It happens ALL of the time.

    I've got to suggestions, I don't know if they are solutions, but why not give them a shot. First of all, let's eliminate their reason for coming. Punish those who hire them. Secondly, put more muscle on the border. You can't plug all of the holes, but why not plug SOME of the holes?

    YMMV,

    Stinger
     
  9. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    Great idea if you think that the State should have the right to dictate to a private company who may or may not be hired. Not such a good solution if you actually believe in freedom of association.

    The first step in solving a problem is admiting that a problem exists. The second step is defining what the problem is. From a libertarian perspective, illegal immigration is not the problem. If someone crosses a state border without asking permission, greasing the right palms, or begging favor from the right politico, who is he hurting?

    The problem appears when said illegal immigrant shows up at the welfare office.

    - Chris
     
  10. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    Step 1 - Eliminate the domestic welfare state

    Step 2 - Subvert Mexico into a capitalist state

    Step 3 - Repeat the process with other 3rd world crapholes
     
  11. cookhj

    cookhj Member

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    i would say that while the problem of illegal immigrants working for less money than an american worker id pretty great, the bigger problem, in my opinion, is when women, cross the border and have children. then they go back to mexico and collect welfare. granted, someone born in the US is a US citizen, i feel that there should be a "BUT" clause attached that would keep this from happening. and a lot of these women don't have just one child over here, they have multiple ones. if they stay here in the US it becomes even more of a problem because now WE, the taxpayer, have to PAY for their kids, not only in welfare money, but healthcare, AND education. and you know DAMN good and well that these kids won't speak a lick of english at all. this is where it begins to cost americans money. illegals working for less SAVES companies money, but the cost of these people that go on welfare/medicare/etc is sucking WAY toomuch money out of the american people.
     
  12. telomerase

    telomerase Member

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    >let's eliminate their reason for coming.

    US politicians have been working on that for decades, and they're getting better at it. Soon no one will want to come here for any reason.

    >The problem appears when said illegal immigrant shows up at the welfare office.

    Yep. So if there's no welfare office, there's no problem.
     
  13. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    telomerase -

    Well, yeah. I forgot to mention that the same problem comes up when the white, Anglo-Saxon, native-born guy shows up at the welfare office.

    Glockler -

    You forgot step 1.5 - Subvert the United States into a capitalist state. ;)



    Mmmm, something else I should mention. I don't advocate trespassing. Property owners have the sole authority to decide who gets to cross their land, and they can back their decision up with force if need be.

    - Chris
     
  14. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    Hey, Chris II

    I'm working on 1.5, give me time:)

    And what are you doing posting? You should be working on my rifle.
     
  15. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    We already have plenty of laws on the books to prohibit individuals and businesses from hiring illegal aliens, who are already felons as a result of having entered out country illegally. This has nothing to do with association and everything to do with securing the nation's borders.

    We, uh... do have borders, don't we?
     
  16. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    The mere existence of a law does not make it morally right. Gun control and drug laws are but two examples. Laws that make a felon out of a person who crosses a State border without asking, "Mother, may I?" are another.

    - Chris
     
  17. SIGarmed

    SIGarmed Member

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    If gun control is so bad, then why doesn't anyone want to stop it?
     
  18. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    Obviously, you have no concept of a couple of little things called national sovereignty or property rights.
     
  19. Erik

    Erik Member

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    "They must have something to gain by illegal immigrants. If not, one side or the other would seem to oppose it.

    So, my only conclusion is that a large group of power brokers in this country benefit from illegal immigration somehow.

    Would you agree or disagree with this?"

    Agree. The benefit comes in the form of hispanic votes.
     
  20. PeteyPete

    PeteyPete Member

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    Republicans: Cheap labor + No benefits payed + No Social Security + No Taxes = Mucho Profits....Those who have the most sway in the Republican party are the ones who benefit the most from cheap labor, and lower costs of production.

    Democrats: Need minority voters to perpetuate the system of dependancy that gets them elected. Without a true downtrodden, the Dems are out of business. Sans the handouts to minority voters, the Dems have a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected.
     
  21. Orthonym

    Orthonym Member

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    What PeteyPete said! Just like the War on Drugs, we're all in it together.

    Personally, I think Edward Abbey was right: Give the illegal Mexican an M-16 and a thousand rounds, and send him home to finish his revolution.
     
  22. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Economic solutions to the border problem...

    1. MAKE IT TOO EXPENSIVE TO HIRE ILLEGALS: Start enforcing the existing laws on hiring illegals. Add more teeth ($100,000 fine per illegal, prison time).

    2. MAKE IT TOO EXPENSIVE FOR ILLEGALS TO CROSS THE BORDER: Military at the border patrolling. Capture illegals or shoot if they resist capture. If necessary, make the area 1-5mi. inside the Mexican border a "no-man's land".

    Will this happen?

    Of course not.....:banghead:

    What WILL happen?

    1. ILLEGALS GAIN MORE POLITICAL POWER: Will gain voting rights in border states & wrest power from citizens. Will open up more opportunities for illegals to infest US.

    2. UPSURGE IN RACIST GROUPS: Frustrated w/ lack of action by gov't & loss of power, more citizens will start joining up w/ non-racist anti-illegals groups (Ranch Rescue). Illegals in gov't will crack down & break RR. Other, more racist groups (Aryan Nation, KKK, Black Panthers, etc.) will take up the slack & violence against illegals (and any race that isn't them) skyrockets.

    3. MORE TERRORISTS ATTACKS: Why come in legally when Arab extremeists can just slip across the sieve of a border? Soon, enough will be in place to cause nationwide havoc...

    4. GOV'T DECLARES MARTIAL LAW: Using Patriot I & II (as well as other Ashcroft-ian laws against the Constitution), gov't begins asserting more control on citizens (ignoring the illegals--for economic reasons, of course). Freedoms curtailed. People constantly under surveillance.

    5. SECOND AMERICAN CIVIL WAR BEGINS.... :(

    Don't you just love the direction that all this :cuss: is heading?... :fire:
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2003
  23. wingman

    wingman Member

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    Two groups benefit from illegal immigration, the rich/wealthy in this country and
    in the case of Mexican illegals the rich class in Mexico.

    If we cannot pick our own fruit, wash dishes, mow lawns, etc, then in truth we
    don't deserve to be free, plus if I could save the cost of taxes due to illegal
    immigration then I could pay more for those services.
     
  24. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    seeker_two:

    The only thing you forgot was that it will happen under Hillary's
    Presidency and will lead to a military take-over within a few years.

    No, it can't happen here...
    :evil:
     
  25. BenW

    BenW Member

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    Well, back in the '50s when my German parents immigrated into the country, my mom and dad were doing that for you, along with Italians, French, and a host of others. Of course they came in the legal way, took no entitlements, paid taxes, and worked the crummy jobs until they found better ones.
     
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