If the 1911 and Glock 21 were both made in the year 1911

[Skribs]

KB, the M&P has no grip safety (and most of the ones I've seen in videos have no manual safety) and people get it stock with a 5.5-6.5 pound pull, and try to tune it into that 5-5.5 pound range (with reduction of creep, etc).

Just curious, does someone have the numbers for what a kitted-up carry XDm or M&P trigger's characteristics (i.e. the lengths of different stages, weight of pull) vs. a carry 1911 are? "It's better" is nice, but the numbers would tell me more. Or if someone has a link to a comparison, that'd be awesome.

 

[savanahsdad]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say, a lot of the glock fans on here have never shot a 1911 ,(with all the talk of triger pull) and maybe they can't get there hands on one to try it , or they don't want to spend the cash for one , or the glock was there first gun or only gun and would hate to think they could have got some thing better for a few more bucks , well if you fall in this group and you can get your hands on a good DA wheel gun , then try this , shoot 6 rounds in DA with the long triger pull , then 6 in SA with the hammer cocked , and see how much better you shoot ! even with my S&W 19-5 .357mag with light loads , I shoot better in SA and that gun has a great triger !

 

[Skribs]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say, a lot of the glock fans on here have never shot a 1911 ,(with all the talk of triger pull) and maybe they can't get there hands on one to try it , or they don't want to spend the cash for one , or the glock was there first gun or only gun and would hate to think they could have got some thing better for a few more bucks , well if you fall in this group and you can get your hands on a good DA wheel gun , then try this , shoot 6 rounds in DA with the long triger pull , then 6 in SA with the hammer cocked , and see how much better you shoot ! even with my S&W 19-5 .357mag with light loads , I shoot better in SA and that gun has a great triger !

Umm...really?

1) My question was regarding specifically two weapons with triggers tuned for carry. I have a XDm, but it is not tuned for carry. I do not have a 1911, and I do not know if the 1911s at my local range are tuned for carry or range use. So yes, it would be a lot of time and money invested for me to get this answer myself. I am asking the question not only so I don't have to invest the time and money (since I'm assuming someone has access to both), but also to help me make decisions as to what gear I want to pursue.

2) If your answer is "buy it and try it" when I'm asking the question, you bet I'm going to ignore that advice and just stay with what I have. I can't afford to shell out hundreds of dollars on a "I want to see what this is like".

3) I'm pretty sure that comparing the DA and SA pulls of a revolver is entirely different than the striker-fired pull and single-action pull of an autoloader. On the DA side, I'm probably at less than half the weight on my XDm as I am on my SP101. On the SA side, I don't have a SAO autoloader, but I'd hope it doesn't have quite the hair trigger that my SP101 has in single action mode. I wouldn't carry a gun like that.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm pretty sure that comparing the DA and SA pulls of a revolver is entirely different than the striker-fired pull and single-action pull of an autoloader.

It is. Even if the length of pull and the let off weights are the same...it's different. Theoretically, there should be no difference, but as our old friend Yogi Berra noted:

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they ain't."

 

[allaroundhunter]

On top of the reasons already mentioned, back in the early 20th century, through the '50s, the phrase "buy American" meant a lot more to many more Americans (and it still does for the gvt procurement of firearms).

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[savanahsdad]

Umm...really?

1) My question was regarding specifically two weapons with triggers tuned for carry. I have a XDm, but it is not tuned for carry. I do not have a 1911, and I do not know if the 1911s at my local range are tuned for carry or range use. So yes, it would be a lot of time and money invested for me to get this answer myself. I am asking the question not only so I don't have to invest the time and money (since I'm assuming someone has access to both), but also to help me make decisions as to what gear I want to pursue.

2) If your answer is "buy it and try it" when I'm asking the question, you bet I'm going to ignore that advice and just stay with what I have. I can't afford to shell out hundreds of dollars on a "I want to see what this is like".

3) I'm pretty sure that comparing the DA and SA pulls of a revolver is entirely different than the striker-fired pull and single-action pull of an autoloader. On the DA side, I'm probably at less than half the weight on my XDm as I am on my SP101. On the SA side, I don't have a SAO autoloader, but I'd hope it doesn't have quite the hair trigger that my SP101 has in single action mode. I wouldn't carry a gun like that.

umm....really ,,, what?............ I was NOT answering your question . if you read it again . I said. "shot in the dark" "Glock fans" and used the word "THEY" not "YOU" sorry I can't answer your question , as I don't have a M&P or a XD, and the point ot the DA and SA test would be to show how much better you can hit without such a long pull

 

[Hangingrock]

"I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say, a lot of the glock fans on here have never shot a 1911"

Assume = Ass-U-me. You may not be correct on your observation.

 

[GLOOB]

"I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say, a lot of the glock fans on here have never shot a 1911"

I agree a good trigger pull means better accuracy. That's why I shoot a P220 better than a 1911.

I must be an anomaly. I have shot 1911's for a decade before I ever picked up a Glock. And I shoot Glocks very well. I can shoot a Gold Cup 1911 slightly better than a G19, but I think it's due to weight, slide length, and sights. G34 and 1911 are about equal, even with stock Glock sights.

But like I said, I must be an anomaly. When I dry fire a Glock, the sights stay rock steady. I can't say the same for a good number of hammer fired DA/SA pistols I've owned and sold (talking SA pull).

 

[savanahsdad]

"I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say, a lot of the glock fans on here have never shot a 1911"

Assume = Ass-U-me. You may not be correct on your observation.

cool ... so you must know everyone on here and I'm worng becaues you KNOW they all have shot 1911's , ok... I'm sorry ,, just can't figure out why they have asked about 1911 trigers ????????????? so I wont ass-u-me that they have not , even though they asked , :banghead::banghead: just WOW!!!!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Skribs: KB, the M&P has no grip safety (and most of the ones I've seen in videos have no manual safety) and people get it stock with a 5.5-6.5 pound pull, and try to tune it into that 5-5.5 pound range (with reduction of creep, etc).

Mine has a manual safety. I will carry no other kind.

The stock trigger pull weight is 6.5 lb.

Anyone who lightens it is taking chances. It is ill advised for anyone to do so.

The pull distance is .3 inches.

There is no comparison with a good 1911.

 

[X-Rap]

One really should talk to the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the FBI SWAT team, the LAPD SWAT Team, MEU (SOC), and MARSOC.

If I had to guess, I would say that the reason is trigger pull, for their special needs, and the trigger pull in question obviously creates the need for safety systems that differ from those on Glock pistols, for example.

Since both the FBI and LAPD do use Glocks in other applications, it is very likely that their decision was an informed one.

^^^ Good an explanation as I have seen.
I'm no special operator nor do I get to put 30,000 rounds through one specific gun each year so the trigger thing and capacity is what leans me in the direction of the Glocks.
The Marines in MARSOC and other elite units have lots of buddys with them when they run out of ammo, I am by myself, I don't get that much trigger time and in the civilian world I don't care to be amped up with a beautiful trigger like that of a 1911 in my hand. If my Glocks had triggers like my 1911's I'd want a safety on them too.

 

[Skribs]

Anyone who lightens it is taking chances. It is ill advised for anyone to do so.

That's interesting, because most of the videos I've seen have people trying to center it around 5 lb., using the D/CAEK kit, the same kit suggested by another moderator on this forum. I will have to disagree with you that 6.5 lb. and a manual safety are the minimum to have a safe carry pistol.

But, you are right. A stock M&P isn't a comparison to a good 1911. I'm not asking about a stock M&P, and that's not really a fair comparison.

ETA: Things like "its no comparison" or "the 1911 is better" are all nice statements to make, but in this particular case I'm asking for numbers, not words, so I can see what the difference is (in terms of X - Y = difference) between the two.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Skribs, lightening it with an Apex kit is one thing, lightening it by yourself (read without proper parts) is what is not advised by S&W.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[Skribs]

Skribs, lightening it with an Apex kit is one thing, lightening it by yourself (read without proper parts) is what is not advised by S&W.

I've been talking about these kinds of kits the whole time.

 

[Hangingrock]

The Complete Book Of The Model 1911 The Cooper Edition. Article: Learning from the Gunfighters a Three Day Operators Course Featuring Two of America’s Preeminent Small Arms Instructors by Jeremy Stafford. The following quotation:

“There was no glossing over the platform’s weaknesses, and both instructors stressed that for real world use for most people, this probably wasn’t the platform. Larry (Vickers) was bluntly honest about why the Tier One unit (Delta) that he once belonged to migrated away from the 1911 and toward the Glock”

I go back a long-long time with the 1911-A1 of which I’ve previously mentioned on the forum as my youthful inexperience in the Marine Corps to a seasoned or lets say somewhat seasoned combative experience. The point is I’m not new to the 1911/1911-A1-45ACP. Along the way Ithaca, Colt, Springfield and S&W platforms with non 1911/1911A1platforms such as SIG-220, S&W-4506, Glock-G21 and the SW99.

Along with that I have my much worn and read 1991 edition of: The Modern Technique of The Pistol by G B Morrison, Jeff Cooper Editorial Adviser.

Yes there are law enforcement entities and military units that use the 1911/1911-A1 series pistols. Law enforcement and Military (Example USMC) have a logistical system for maintenance and repair to keep those pistols functional.

As taken from the opening quotation:” There was no glossing over the platform’s weaknesses, and both instructors (Vickers and Hackathorn) stressed that for real world use for most people, this probably wasn’t the platform.

In my opinion most people maybe better served with a Glock which includes me for the subject being addressed.

 

[savanahsdad]

ok!! wow page 5 ! we have gotten a bit side tracked , lol.... the OP wanted to know what the the US Army would choose and why ? putting the 1911 and the G21 side by side , and not adding a safty to the G21 or adding a dbl stack mag to the 1911 the US Gov. could just have made snale drums for both makeing both 50 round guns , so thats a mute point, saying the G21 is lighter is also a mute point , they were not looking for the lightest gun , and we could say just make a poly 1911, or a steel G21, and what someone said about them after the fact is also a mute point (thats what they picked right) this tirger kit that tirger pull this ....... not the point ,,,
they had stricker fired guns back then , thats not what they wanted , ,lets not forget the 1903 Colt , it had a hammer but it was inside the gun and that didn't get picked, the G21 has no safty on the outside of the gun , the 1911 dose , then there the tear down , no tools needed for the 1911
the OP asked witch would fit the bill , not what can we do to the G21 to make it fit the bill

so like it or not , love it or leave it they would have picked the 1911

and just to be fair my 1911 is a S&W it would not fit the bill eather and my glock (wifes glock) is a gen 1 mod 17 , and not a .45 , I'm just put a stock out of the box G21 side by side with a out of the box 1911/1911 A1 just like the OP asked

 

[1911Tuner]

so like it or not , love it or leave it they would have picked the 1911

Maybe. Maybe not. During the trials, there were a few of the honchos charged with overseeing the exercise who were holding out hard for the Savage, stating among other things, that the Colt was too big and too heavy. Had it not been for the Colt's quick detail strip without tools...Johnny's ace in the hole...it's very possible that the Savage would have won out, despite its problems.

So, this is a question that we'll never know the answer to.

 

[coolluke01]

ok!! wow page 5 ! we have gotten a bit side tracked

No this is exactly where I want this to be. The 1911 vs Glock in the year 1911 was only an exercise to evaluate the two guns with less bias and preconceived notions.

I can see that the 1911 can be fine turned and have a better trigger and be "slightly" safer for some than the Glock with the same trigger. The external safety does add an element of... safety, believe it or not! lol.

I can see why the military in that day chose the 1911. There were a few features that the gun was build specifically with, the Glock was not built with the same requirements.

I never once bashed 1911's in the post. The 1911 is not the latest and greatest and pointing out facts about this is not mindless bashing. I also do not have hidden agendas but truly do like to find the truth. I have learned a great deal by this thread and will most likely some day own a 1911. I don't see how I could avoid it. It's a piece of American history and a fine weapon.

 

[2wheels]

Maybe. Maybe not. During the trials, there were a few of the honchos charged with overseeing the exercise who were holding out hard for the Savage, stating among other things, that the Colt was too big and too heavy. Had it not been for the Colt's quick detail strip without tools...Johnny's ace in the hole...it's very possible that the Savage would have won out, despite its problems.

So, this is a question that we'll never know the answer to.

What would have really been crazy to imagine, is if the Luger had ended up winning the US Army pistol trials...

 

[JohnBT]

"When compared side by side in the year 1911 which one would you think the US Army would choose and why?"

1911, it's not good to scare the horses.

 

[1911Tuner]

I can see that the 1911 can be fine turned and have a better trigger and be "slightly" safer for some than the Glock with the same trigger.

Fine-tuned triggers to me mean Match Grade triggers. A bit too light for my tastes on a carry gun. The stock trigger action on a 1911 is generally quite good at around 5.5 pounds.

The external safety does add an element of... safety, believe it or not!

Mainly for those who can't seem to keep their fingers away from the trigger until they actually mean to fire the gun, which seems to be too much to expect from some people...regardless of what they carry.

 

[coalman]

When compared side by side in the year 1911 which one would you think the US Army would choose and why?

The all steel, hammer-fired one with the manual safety that went 6k without a failure. Glock was ahead of it's time in the '80s. Going from wheelguns to the Glock in 1911 would have been too much. Regardless, I do not believe plastic handguns to be the better troop general issue weapon.

 

[powder]

I've had 3 G21s: gen3, gen3SF, and a gen3c. Kept the gen3c.

Next one I try will be the gen. 4 G21.

I have 3 1911s, love them all.

Simple test really, you've seen it on Youtube-dig a hole in the backyard, fill it with water and make a big mudpie mess of it. Now throw in a G21 and a 1911. Cover em with more dirt and water and mix it up.

Pull em out, hose em off quick, and try to shoot them both.

I have "spent the cash" several times, as I am a firearms enthusiast, Instructor, etc.. I love guns and the 1911s in particular for THAT trigger. However, it is not the top tier fighting gun it once was.


The top tier training/LE/Mil guys agree; M&P, Glock, FNH, ....they still have their 1911 hobbies.

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say, a lot of the glock fans on here have never shot a 1911 ,(with all the talk of triger pull) and maybe they can't get there hands on one to try it , or they don't want to spend the cash for one , or the glock was there first gun or only gun and would hate to think they could have got some thing better for a few more bucks , well if you fall in this group

 

[1911Tuner]

Now throw in a G21 and a 1911. Cover em with more dirt and water and mix it up.
Pull em out, hose em off quick, and try to shoot them both.

Did it. Springfield GI mil-spec about 10 years ago. Didn't hose it, but I dunked it into a bucket of water and agitated it for about 15 seconds. Slung it a few times and let it drip for about 15 seconds. Worked fine.

 

[45_auto]

Simple test really, you've seen it on Youtube-dig a hole in the backyard, fill it with water and make a big mudpie mess of it. Now throw in a G21 and a 1911. Cover em with more dirt and water and mix it up.

Pull em out, hose em off quick, and try to shoot them both.

Why hose them off? This guy did it with a 1911 straight out of the mud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshMCKkfsW4

It is a well known fact among internet commandos that NO 1911's were ever allowed to get dirty during WW1, WW2, Korea, or Vietnam.