If the AWB is renewed, how will you vote?

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

GeneC:

CHL, you don't know anything about me. My point here is most people are just spouting rhetoric they heard from someone else. Btw, can you provide a source for this?:

"The crime rate was decreasing prior the the AWB's passage, and for reasons completely unrealated to it. Reasons which were (are) related to a decrease in the number of inner-city 16-24 year old minority males in the US population, minimum mandatory sentencing, zero tolerance policing, etc."

You know the 'minimum sentencing' and zero tolerance' is from the VCC&LE Act.

No, the concepts of minimum mandatory sentencing, zero tolerance policing, abolishment of parole, etc. were tried first at the State or City level long before any Federal involvement.

Again, and this is the last time I'm going to repeat this since you are obviously trying to duck this point, I am not the one who is in the position of having to provide any evidence in favor of my position. YOU are. YOU are advocating the extension of the AWB, therefore YOU are advocating a restriction on a Constitutional right. YOU need to justify that restriction. You still haven't done so.

Your implied statement that I have to provide support for the absence of a restriction is absurd.

 

[Treylis]

Wow, this sure got busy while I was reading other stuff.

GeneC, I actually would not care if the AWB reduced crime. People should have the right to own anything or do anything so long as it harms nobody but themselves or potentially other consenting adults. Concordantly, mere ownership of property should never be illegal--there can be no criminal objects, only criminal actions.

You might start saying "But people use these things to kill cops!", "Nobody needs 30 rounds to hunt deer" and other Brady rhetoric. I don't care. It's still an object, devoid of a mens rea, and it's fundamentally morally wrong to restrict people from owning something because they just possibly maybe MIGHT do something bad with it. That's one hell of a slippery slope, my friend.

As to need... I don't even want to hear "you don't need" arguments unless I'm passing by you while you're subsistence-farming in a field and giving everything extra that you don't "need" away to passers-by. You don't need more than a few hundreds of calories a day to survive, but not everyone prefers to look like they just got out of Dachau. The logical endpoint of all need-based arguments is the Fourth-World peasant toiling over grain and barely surviving. I don't want that, I hope very dearly that you don't want that, so, please, never invoke "need" as the arbiter of anything.

 

[fix]

Actually I don't think Gene meant to put himself in a position to argue in favor of the AWB. I think he was trying to express that a renewal of it would not cause him to drop his support of the President. That's actually the one thing he made fairly clear towards the end of the thread. He just spent a lot of time attacking the problem the wrong way. Rather than convincing all of us that the President deserves re-election by maximizing the President's successes, he tried to minimize the AWB by convincng us that it isn't that bad...even though the Pres hasn't signed it. I think Gene's position could be summed up in one sentence:

Gene's support for the President is stronger than his opposition to the AWB and he will be voting for the President regardless of the disposition of the AWB.

Clarity and simplicity can often prevent mass confusion and bickering.

 

[GeneC]

You're absolutely right Fix, thanks for having the clear head here. I started out by voting that I'd re-elect Bush, in the hypothetical event that he signed it's renewal, as I'd have faith that'd he surmise that if Congress passed it, it be for Natl security reasons and he'd err on the side of caution and I believe the main issue this election is to win the war on terrorism, which this Adminsitration is infinitely more capable than ANY other, but then I saw alot of comments of non-logical reasons why people'd abandon Bush if he signed, that'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So I started questioning their sources and when I checked them, found flaws, but as we all saw it just snowballed. I tried to address every issue with an open mind and searched for credible sources and explained my point with the sources and my point for presenting the sources. I think that if nothing else, this thread showed that some people's minds are made up and reality and logic won't stand in their way and will resort to attacking the person rather than confront the issues.

 

[GeneC]

Treylis said: "People should have the right to own anything or do anything.." "You might start saying "But people use these things to kill cops!", "Nobody needs 30 rounds to hunt deer" and other Brady rhetoric. I don't care. It's still an object, devoid of a mens rea, and it's fundamentally morally wrong to restrict people from owning something because they just possibly maybe MIGHT do something bad with it. That's one hell of a slippery slope, my friend."


I didn't say that, the International Association of Police Chiefs and the Natl Sheriffs Association and the Police Benevolent Society, et al said that. I really don't know, but I'll sure take their word for it. So, surely you don't mean that ANYONE should be able to own ANYTHING they want, even though that's what you say. So either you're actually saying something you don't really mean or...what?

 

[Justin]

So long as they don't violate the non-agression principle, I couldn't care less what someone owns.

 

[Sam Adams]

Against. I won't accept that kind of betrayal. I am, however, now set to vote enthusiastically against Lurch (i.e. less than enthusiastically for Bush), and that vote is a LOCK unless the AWB is renewed IN ANY FORM.

However, I don't see this happening - too many people on the Dem side don't want to get burned (i.e. thrust involuntarily into the private sector come January) to give the Wicked B!tch of the West (Feinswine) a victory on this obsession of hers.

 

[madcowburger]

Except for the 20-25 percent of them who are killed with their own or a partner's gun, cops get killed with pretty much the same kind of guns we mere mortals and "civilians" get killed with: mostly cheap and/or stolen handguns, and a mixed assortment of mostly "sporting"-type .22 rifles, deer rifles, and shotguns.

The closest thing to an "assault weapon" that even shows up much in the hands of actual criminals is the SKS, popular just because it's cheap.

You rarely see expensive weapons like AR-15s, Galils, FALs, Springfield M1As, etc. in criminal hands.

The average crook doesn't see any good reason to spend more than about $100 for a gun. If he's got $1,500 to $2,500 he's going to spend most of it on crack, meth, strippers/hookers, booze, gaudy "bling-bling" jewelry, bulky athletic shoes with light bulbs in them, baggy designer jeans, etc. If there's hundred bucks left over on the morning after he might spend that on a Lorcin or Bryco pistol, or an SKS carbine.

This stuff about the police being "outgunned by criminals" is mostly just propaganda.

MCB

 

[atek3]

madcowburger is speaking the straight dope. Criminals use junky guns, its a fact(oid).

atek3

 

[insidious_calm]

Reluctantly against

I will not allow myself to vote for Bush if the AWB is renewed in any form. I would reluctantly vote libertarian, even though I've never voted for a libertarian before. It would essentially be a protest vote.

I know some of you are saying "But Kerry will win and he would be worse!". Maybe so, but you are not looking at this from the right perspective then. If Bush, or ANY POLITICIAN votes to extend the AWB and you in turn vote for them you are giving them a pass on their actions. If the AWB gets renewed Kerry just might win, but we will pick up at least 6 pro-gun seats in the senate and many more in the house. The GOP will know that the AWB votes hurt them bad and they won't likely let it happen again. The ripple effect from AWB II will be bigger and longer lasting than the first time.

It's like spanking a misbehaving child, you don't really want to do it but you know it's for the best in the long run. Vote your gun. Vote your constitution. Always remember that freedom isn't free.


I.C.

 

[GeneC]

MC, Atek3, sources please, or is this just personal opinion? I can tell you my detective bought my stolen SIG p-220 from a gang member for $50 and my Kimber CDP Pro was used/recovered in a home invasion/robbery.

 

[Sam Adams]

I know some of you are saying "But Kerry will win and he would be worse!". Maybe so, but you are not looking at this from the right perspective then. If Bush, or ANY POLITICIAN votes to extend the AWB and you in turn vote for them you are giving them a pass on their actions. If the AWB gets renewed Kerry just might win, but we will pick up at least 6 pro-gun seats in the senate and many more in the house. The GOP will know that the AWB votes hurt them bad and they won't likely let it happen again. The ripple effect from AWB II will be bigger and longer lasting than the first time.

I couldn't agree more. I am currently quite ticked off at Bush for a bunch of reasons (immigration, signing the Campaign Finance Reform law that HE HIMSELF said was unconstitutional, spending like a drunken sailor, doing deals with Ted Kennedy (Drunken Murderer, MA), etc.). However, I am very pleased with what is NOW my most important issue, the War on Terror. He hasn't given in to the UN, the Germans, the terrorists or to the worst of the bunch, the Frogs . Kerry represents the opposite of all that I stand for, and while Bush is far from perfect, he's mostly in my corner.

HOWEVER , the moment that Bush signs a renewal (whether partial, whole or worse than that) of the AWB, then THAT will become my single issue. Bush, if he fails that test, loses my vote. Liberty is far more important than who holds the White House for 4 years. No one person can destroy this country in only 4 years (although I'd rather not test that out with Kerry or, in 2008, with $hitlery), but the continued erosion of our most basic right IS something that will destroy us over time - mainly because we've only been losing, we've been only sliding down the slippery slope for 70 years, and a renewal would not merely reinforce that trend, it would give new energy to the anti-gun statists and accelerate the process. Punishing Bush and a bunch of others who act to destroy our rights would send a powerful message. The Dems got it in '94 and again in 2000, which is why many of them are gunshy (pun intended) now. The Republicans have yet to receive that message, and I hope that threads like this prevent the need for such a message this year.

I can put up with a LOT of crap from politicians, especially if they are generally for limiting the power of our government here and aggressively defending us overseas, but there is NO KERRYING WAY that I will tolerate any more erosions of our right to self defense and defense of our liberties. MY LINE IN THE SAND IS THE ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN - IF IT DIES, BUSH GETS MY VOTE; IF NOT, HE DOESN'T. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

 

[Apache]

You're talking about the gang problem? People that will rob you,rape your daughtweror any other woman they find isolated. They're called politicians,and btw you need a gun for protection!

 

[RooK]

MC, Atek3, sources please, or is this just personal opinion? I can tell you my detective bought my stolen SIG p-220 from a gang member for $50 and my Kimber CDP Pro was used/recovered in a home invasion/robbery.

Proof please, we can't just take your word for it. Some scanned police reports or the like would be sufficent, thank you.

 

[Justin]

MC, Atek3, sources please, or is this just personal opinion? I can tell you my detective bought my stolen SIG p-220 from a gang member for $50 and my Kimber CDP Pro was used/recovered in a home invasion/robbery.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Table taken from the National Tracing Center (NTC)’s Crime Gun Trace Reports via ATF's Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Initiative, which can be found here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/1999html/ycgii/introduction.htm#int

Sorry Genester, but your Kimber and SIG don't even rate a blip on the radar.

But yet somehow the Genevenator will spin my answer, or claim I'm making personal attacks, all just so he can support a law that makes it a felony for you or I to possess a stamped piece of sheet metal. Nevermind that there has yet to be even one study that has shown that the AWB has resulted in any sort of significant positive impact on crime.

But then again, how many street criminals are going to buy a 7 lb., $1200 rifle just so they can relieve the Quik-E-Mart attendant of the $50 in the register?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If the AWB gets renewed Kerry just might win, but we will pick up at least 6 pro-gun seats in the senate and many more in the house.

BY my own analysis, six seats in the Senate is an absolute best-case scenario and picking up more than six seats in the House would be way above the best hopes of any analysis I've done.

I'm curious to hear your take on this that makes you feel so optimistic.

 

[atek3]

hey justin can you find the list of top ten rifles used? Realizing of course that rifles make up only a vanishingly small percentage of overall crime guns. I'd guess that the SKS, ruger PC9, and ruger mini-14, make up the majority of the rifles used in crime.

atek3

 

[PATH]

I will be writing in a name as is my right to do!

 

[Cinomed]

Reluctantly against


GeneC, you need to stop arguing for arguments sake.

"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
— Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution


Shall NOT be infringed.

nuff said.

 

[Justin]

hey justin can you find the list of top ten rifles used?

They don't come right and say it, but there seems to be some confusion over just what, exactly, a North China Industries 7.62mm rifle is- at times they reference the SKS, and other times they reference the MAK 90. It seems that in the end, they just muddled the SKS and the MAK90/Kalashnikov clones together. Since they list North China Industries specifically, I'd be curious to find out if there is any truth to the rumors that the Chinese offloaded a few thousand AK's illegally in the early to mid '90's.

There are further breakdowns along age, but nothing that singles out rifles. It's either long guns or handguns, take your pick.

 

[atek3]

Oh come on, not one rifle in a real caliber like 223 or 308?
Criminals are lame.

atek3

 

[Justin]

lol.

The ATF stats go on to show that in 1999 they were requested to trace all of 9, count 'em, 9 AR15's used in crime.

Unfortunately, they've only been doing the YCGII studies since the late '90's, but I would surmise that you could do a comparison with the FBI Uniform stats from before 1994.

*edit*
Unfortunately the FBI studies cut off at 1995.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius

While I can't find a direct link to the actual UCR study from 1994, I have found a number of sources stating that so-called "assault weapons" were used in less than 2% of all gun crimes, and citing the 1994 UCR study as the source.

However, at this point we're dealing with such a small cross-sample of arms that measuring any statistically significant changes becomes impossible. You may as well count the angels on the head of a pin.

Of course, all of this pushing around of numbers is really nothing more than a game. Even if every gang member was toting a full-on JP Enterprises AR15 tricked to the hilt with all of the goodies, it would still not be a valid reason for removing mine, yours, or any other responsible citizen's RKBA.

Or, at least, if one were to make the argument that it were, they should be invited to put their money where their mouth is, and start campaigning to outlaw pump-action 12 gauges and .22 LR rifles.


Far, far, more .22's and 12 gauges are used, and have been used in crimes than any sort of EBR.

 

[Moparmike]

So we should ban .22's and 12 gauge shotguns! Do it for the children!!! I am writing my senators, and doing it fooorrr thhheee chhiiillllldddrrreeeeennn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


/Moonbat

 

[71Commander]

I can tell you my detective bought my stolen SIG p-220 from a gang member for $50 and my Kimber CDP Pro was used/recovered in a home invasion/robbery.

Why weren't these guns returned to the proper owner after recovery?

 

[GeneC]

No, no Justin, you got me all wrong. I'm here to raise the bar for THR folks. You presented a GOOD source, that's what I'm talking about and it shows that BG used almost as many Rugers and S&Ws as Lorcin , but 50% more Rugers and S&Ws than Davis or Raven. Oh I had a brand new Ruger Sp101 that has not been recovered and a Colt Combat Commander.

Now, on the long gun chart , you can say that Bg used AK( ATEK, 7.62 IS .308) more than any other, eccept Mossberg and Marlin, but used 50% more Mossberrg 12ga shotguns than AK , but 50% more AK than Winchesters. I'd rather a BG use an Ak than a 12 ga shotgun, if I had to pick one or the other.

Tenn, they'll keep the guns 'til after the trials, but I will get them back.