if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense?

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First of all, I wouldn't.

But if there were really no choice, I would use my 1911/.22 conversion kit with 15 rd magazines, and put as many Stingers as possible in center of mass. I really think that dithering over the TYPE of .22 round you use is a lot of VERY fine hair-splitting. I think how MANY hits you can get is much more relevant than the type of bullet.
 
In a handgun... with rimfire ammo I would recommend a double-action revolver for MANY reasons... however the ones I've seen lately have miserable triggers, not recommended for someone in your condition without trigger work... and then I would go with a .22 WMR revolver, the longer the barrel the better. HOWEVER (and that's a BIG however) double action revolvers can require a good amount of finger strength and practice to shoot effectively.

If solely for home defense than I would choose a rifle, where recoil is not as much of a concern, and you could get a much more potent round. The .30 Carbine is light, powerful, and easy to use. Recoil is minimal. Plus it is downright fun to shoot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

In a handgun I would try something heavier, like the Kel-Tec PMR30 and uses the .22 WMR (aka .22 Magnum) or maybe an FN FiveSeven 5.7mm.

It's also worth trying a Browning BDA in .380 ACP, heavier than your typical .380 and a WIDE grip to help spread out the recoil.

In .22LR I would shoot the fastest 40 solids I could find or the 60gr SSS.
 
I'd like to see some photos of these .22lr "FMJ's" people keep mentioning. I've never seen a full metal jacketed .22lr before, is there such a thing?
 
If you're up for (lots of) experimentation and playing with penetration/expansion tests, there's a fella over on rimfirecentral (I think his userid is "Paco") that sells bullet sizer/shaping kits. You could play around a good bit (indefinitely) with various factory loads resizing (accuracy and reliability) and reshaping them (penetration/expansion, assuming good A and R).

The only folks I really hear of using them are benchrest shooters trying to squeeze that last bit of accuracy from their rimfires. But some of the profiles he offers are definitely hunting inspired.

Best of luck choosing on your cartridge. I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear what and why you end up with what you do.
 
Thank you all for the responses. As of this time, I will continue my training regimen (100 round range time, 3-4 days a week) and intensify scenarios as has been suggested. I have recently purchased an Uncle Mike's IWB holster, but it rides a little high for carry, so I will be modifying my pants to make it work in the meantime.

As for bullet choice, I will switch to 13 rounds of mini-mags, (velocitors when I find them) since I stumbled across a short barreled gelatin test that did not bode well for stinger penetration (although they did expand uniformly.)

I agree that this discussion is like splitting hairs, but if my ass is on the line, and my beautiful girlfriend's sweet ass is on the line, I require the best defense that I can achieve.

See you all in rifle discussion.
 
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To test for penetration qualities, I once shot Stingers, Velocitors, Supermaximums, Mini-Mags, bulk cheap-os, etc, at a 2X4, all from the same 3 guns and same distance. The Supermaximums did best followed by the Velocitors. The Supermaximums were way deeper than the Velocitors with a 2.5" barrel, a bit deeper with the 4 incher but they were almost even with a 6" barrel, the Aguilas being only slightly deeper. See if your gun feeds Aguila Supermaximums; if not get some Velocitors.

For defense, don't squander any penetration with .22LR hollowpoints; you can't afford to give up any. Go with solid points.
 
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The best thing about the .22LR bullet modifiers isn't really the increased accuracy, IMHO. It's modifying bullets like the Aguila SSS 60gr into very effective hollow points.
 
I'd like to see some photos of these .22lr "FMJ's" people keep mentioning. I've never seen a full metal jacketed .22lr before, is there such a thing?
Click to expand...
They did in fact exist, however most FMJ looking .22 LR is just copper washed lead
M24001.gif
 
Not Trying to change your caliber choice but have you considered this?

6075012911_e31c7d4968.png

Kel Tec PMR-30.....30 round .22 mag handgun
 
I have used a P-22 for CCW in the past as well. I did all of the 'Bible' mods on mine, like it seems you have. The gun ran very well for me. It was flawless with CCI ammunition.

If you are not already aware, Brass Fetcher has done fairly extensive ballistic gelatin testing on the Walther P-22 with various types of ammunition, including CCI.

Long story short - Many types of ammunition will give you adequate penetration with your P-22, but none of them will expand. If they did, then you would not get sufficient penetration.

"Experts" say that trained shooters will experience something like a 30% reduction in accuracy under stress. IF that is true, then the accuracy you are getting from your P-22 at the range should be sufficient.

If I were in your shoes, I would just keep shooting the P-22, and keep stoking it with CCI velocitors.
 
Funny story about a .22 pistol and my Father-N-Laws. He carries a little .22 revolver in his pocket at all times. Now he's retired army and a "retired" marine plus he's been in law enforcement longer than I've been alive.
He showed it to me one day and I jokingly asked was he afraid of being attacked by a rodent... I quickly learned his logic behind it. With a strait face he told me if we were to get in a fight, he would get me in a headlock, place the barrel in the first available hole and let the gun do the rest.... I haven't said anything about the gun since....
I think the .22 is a very capable round. I don't want to get shot with it......anywhere, ever...
 
Stingers are my choice for self-defense when I carry my little Bersa Thunder22, or at least it will be. It's currently on lay-a-way. Shot placement is king. I decided to go with the light weight .22LR for those days when my back pain is unbearable. I have Scoliosis and Artheritis (as Fred G. Sanford would say).

It sounds as though you put a lot of work into your P22. It ought to be quite the hot little pistol. I probably should have stayed with the P22 since it is a few ounces lighter. However, we'll see how the Bersa goes. If need be, I'll pick up a P22 at a later time.

Good luck.
 
What about trying 22 Magnum? Keltec has that pistol with very high capacity and there are a variety of revolvers that are chambered in 22 Magnum.

Also take a look at the various 32 calibers. Avoid little guns. Maybe take a look at the Ruger SP101 in 327 Federal Magnum. I think you can load it with various rimmed 32 rounds.
 
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(I score the hollow points with a small phillips head screwdriver.)
Click to expand...

I wouldn't do that. It might complicate a legal proceeding even if it is a good shoot.

The main gripe about the .22 for defense (in my opinion) is the less reliable ignition. If it was me I would go for a revolver with CCI Mini-mag ammo.
 
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset.

If I had to use a .22, I'd put a lot of work into the mindset and skillset before I started thinking about the ammo. Since you're asking this question, and you take the time the practice, you probably have the Mindset, and it sounds like your skillset is pretty good too. When I was reading your post, the one thing that stood out was that you were shooting from the bench. I'd practise as much as I could shooting from different positions and distances. Since .22 ammo is less expensive than most rounds, you should be able to get a good deal of practice in.

If it was me, I would strive to become proficient in:
-clearing manfunctions
-point shooting/indexing/instinctive/ whatever you want to call fast close range shooting
-shooting smaller targets at a longer than average distance (greater than 25 yards)
- engaging multiple targets.
-engaging multiple targets at varying distances.
-reloading (Especially since the Walther has that [to me] funky mag release in the trigger guard)
-clearing malfunctions.

Your own list of skills that need work may be different, but that is what I feel is important when talking about using a .22 in a gunfight.

As far as ammo choices go, I'd look for reliability, then penetration, then expansion. I don't care if the ammo expands to several inches in diameter if it doesn't penetrate enough to actually do anything, and ballistics are a moot point if your gun doesn't go bang.

I'd also look into using a .22 magnum, if that is at all possible. I think Kel Tec makes one called the PMR-30, that might suit your needs quite nicely. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/

Hope this helps some,

Funny story about a .22 pistol and my Father-N-Laws. He carries a little .22 revolver in his pocket at all times. Now he's retired army and a "retired" marine plus he's been in law enforcement longer than I've been alive.
He showed it to me one day and I jokingly asked was he afraid of being attacked by a rodent... I quickly learned his logic behind it. With a strait face he told me if we were to get in a fight, he would get me in a headlock, place the barrel in the first available hole and let the gun do the rest.... I haven't said anything about the gun since....
Click to expand...

And you're his son. I'd hate to see what he'd do to someone who isn't family :uhoh: :what:

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
As with any gun I would pull the trigger until the threat ceased to exist period. Else go for hollow points and be aware that your 22 will pass through several walls before stopping if you miss.
 
kayak-man said:
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset.

If I had to use a .22, I'd put a lot of work into the mindset and skillset before I started thinking about the ammo. Since you're asking this question, and you take the time the practice, you probably have the Mindset, and it sounds like your skillset is pretty good too. When I was reading your post, the one thing that stood out was that you were shooting from the bench. I'd practise as much as I could shooting from different positions and distances. Since .22 ammo is less expensive than most rounds, you should be able to get a good deal of practice in.

If it was me, I would strive to become proficient in:
-clearing manfunctions
-point shooting/indexing/instinctive/ whatever you want to call fast close range shooting
-shooting smaller targets at a longer than average distance (greater than 25 yards)
- engaging multiple targets.
-engaging multiple targets at varying distances.
-reloading (Especially since the Walther has that [to me] funky mag release in the trigger guard)
-clearing malfunctions.

Your own list of skills that need work may be different, but that is what I feel is important when talking about using a .22 in a gunfight.

As far as ammo choices go, I'd look for reliability, then penetration, then expansion. I don't care if the ammo expands to several inches in diameter if it doesn't penetrate enough to actually do anything, and ballistics are a moot point if your gun doesn't go bang.

I'd also look into using a .22 magnum, if that is at all possible. I think Kel Tec makes one called the PMR-30, that might suit your needs quite nicely. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/

Hope this helps some,



And you're his son. I'd hate to see what he'd do to someone who isn't family :uhoh: :what:

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
Click to expand...
Thank you very much.
 
If it were me, I would not carry stingers. They are great for rodents but I would worry about pentration. Take a look at the SGB (small game bullet) which is a solid with a flat point. This would be a great round.

10 head shots with a .22 is better than a missed shot with some other rounds.

Think about this. Isn't a 12Ga with buck shot something like 6 or .22 round balls? If those work, sending 10-12 downrange in a 15 second time frame is just as deadly.

PS, scoring, or changing any rounds could work against you in court.
"Your honor, this gentleman increased the deadliness of a round by "scoring" you see he really was premeditated on killing someone. "

Just something to think about.

The small game bullet.
Your defense attorney, Your honor, this guy was in fear of his life and used what he had available, including the small game bullet he uses for hunting (if you hunt) which show he had no "intention" of killing poor Mr. SoandSo Scumbag.
 
^^^ To add to the above post... this isn't precise by any means but .22 sized pellets from a 12ga 2-3/4 inch shell would be more like 20-30 pellets in one shot.

But we digress from the OP's needs.
 
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I don't know about ballistics gel and all that, but I "know someone" that shot large critters with stingers, that have rather muscular bodies, rather thicker than most human's thoracic cavity. Penetration was outstanding, and he never went hungry.
 
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