If you ever see this, just STOP

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Onty, Nov 21, 2021.

  1. Onty

    Onty Member

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    I searched for this case for quite a while, and finally found it last night:

    MxGTXJn.jpg

    If you ever see primer like this, STOP, something is very wrong. If standard pressure for 7x64 is about 60.000 psi, I wouldn't be surprised if that pressure was at least 100.000 psi.

    I have another several cases like this. As a mater of fact, I was there when rifle was fired. It's sporterized M98. Guy had to pound quite hard a bolt handle to open the rifle. I told him not use this rounds and destroy them. He said that ammo was factory made. Hard to believe that something lake this could be loaded in the factory and pass the inspection.

    Looking at the case body, I couldn't see any trace of resizing:

    8YdjxIl.jpg

    Except possibility of neck sizing, but I am not confident:

    I6iOaDG.jpg

    My apology for pictures, my cell is bit old and I am not the expert.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  2. KY DAN

    KY DAN Member

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    Well that's interesting, I wonder what the base mics versus what the Sami standard is.

    Good flows, I have a 6.5-06 ack imp Springfield 1903 that came with ammo and brass. There are around 10 pieces which resemble your case with the exception the is a hole melted through the primer. Scary
     
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  3. TimRB

    TimRB Member

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    Ah--so that's what a flattened primer looks like. I hope the shooter took your advice and trashed this ammo. Looks like a monstrous overcharge.

    Tim
     
  4. Archie

    Archie Member

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    No matter WHO loaded the cartridge, that loading in that rifle is way too high for even my somewhat adventurous soul.

    In the sake of not being over accusative, did someone check the barrel first and insure he didn't fire a stuck bullet in addition to the round shown? That will usually give signs of over pressure. One might also pull one of the other rounds and determine the weight of powder employed and make an attempt at identifying the type of powder used.

    You are correct, sir. Something is dreadfully wrong.
     
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  5. Reeferman

    Reeferman Member

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    Sure unit didn’t come out of this fine factory?

     
  6. Mk-211

    Mk-211 Member

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    Looking at the pic of the neck, I'm wondering if the headspacing is off?

    I wouldn't shoot the rifle or the ammo until both are checked.
     
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  7. Onty

    Onty Member

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    Talking about 6,5-06. I read the story about the chap that was shooting Arisaka, converted to 30-06. He complained that rifle "kicks like mule" and went to a local smith. He checked the rifle and found that somebody just open the chamber for 30-06, but bore remained 6,5 mm. Apparently, rifle ended up in NRA museum.

    Hard to believe that it was just too much powder. I would say that most likely wrong (faster) powder was used. Rifle (talking about 7x64) loaded normally, and bolt closed without any effort. Also, same rifle with other ammo worked fine.
     
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  8. CoalCrackerAl

    CoalCrackerAl Member

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    I had some 44 magnum Remington factory loads. When i shot my SBH it sounded like a rifle being fired and it hurt my wrist and stung my hand. I was thankful for Rugers toughness. I don't know if my CVA hunter would have held up to the loads.
     
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  9. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    This reminds me of a bunch of 7.62x39 I saw at the range, every empty was split in 2, the only thing holding them together was the case head.....they looked old to me, and smelled bad....very pungent smell.
    Only thing I can think of is 1) older ammo got a little hotter over say 40-50 years of time (possibly but not likely)
    2) or some AK or SKS chamber was larger than spec. causing the splitting?

    Yep. Those are one of the factory loads that they don't go shy on power. Let me guess.... 180gr JSP/JHP? These can be brutal..
    Did you experience sticky extractions, cracked cases, or flat primers?
     
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  10. Random 8

    Random 8 Member

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    I actually had some factory .270 Win come out looking like that, at least the ones where the primer stayed in the case. I fired 4 through a Belgian BAR before the 5th choked on a loose primer. Never fired that 5th round or the rest of the box after I took a look at the 4.

    Determined the issue in my case was Federal 150gr RN in a rifle having an extremely short...like zero freebore with a 130 grain bullet seated deeply...leade. Might have been a custom chamber, IDK, I got the rifle second hand. So long as you loaded 130 grain Hornady bullets to the cannelure and worked up, it was fine. Started looking slightly hot a couple grains below Hornady max so that's where I stopped there. Anything longer would jam the rifling and/or get HOT in a hurry.
     
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  11. CoalCrackerAl

    CoalCrackerAl Member

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    Yes they were the 180 grain JSP. I didn't check the primer after. I don't recall the casing splitting. I think they extracted ok. I still have them. Maybe ill pull them and download by a few grains.
     
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  12. Scooter22

    Scooter22 Member

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    Thats pretty scary. While most reloaders take that as a way overload sign, some take it as thats the max they can use and do. I'm surprised theres not more booms.
     
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  13. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    That does look really bad. I would not shoot it either.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  14. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

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    STM tumbling conceals almost all signs of resizing, yielding a (sometimes excessively) burnished finish, and peens the case lips like what seems to be present above.

    It's a sneaky trick employed by some to sell "once fired brass."

    NEVER buy STM tumbled brass from fly - by - night vendors.
     
  15. 41 Mag

    41 Mag Member

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    Wouldn't surprise me if the bullets hadn't grown attached to the necks thru galvanic corrosion being the age. I pulled down some rounds a while back that had been loaded in the late 70s that I had to seat a touch first then pull to break the neck tension.

    Throw in a bit of neck sealant of sorts and might as well sweat the two together with solder.
     
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  16. Nature Boy
    • Contributing Member

    Nature Boy Contributing Member

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    Powder deteriorated over time

    @Slamfire has some good info on this
     
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  17. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Old damn ammunition and agnotology are a bad mix. The most vocal and loud people on the web are Deniers, and when it comes to ammunition and gunpowder, no one makes money arguing with the deniers. I believe industry has decided it is more profitable to let the deniers rule, because no matter how old the ammunition or gunpowder, they will buy it, and they convince others to buy also. Here a some threads I contributed to

    Powder breaking down

    I think it is interesting that no body attributed the blow up of the Serbu 50 caliber rifle to old deteriorated ammunition, even though the owner claimed the ammunition was "crazy old". This shows how completely in denial the shooting community is to the problems of old gunpowder. I am of the opinion that stuff was high pressure when issued, for performance, and scrapped when rounds in the lot began showing over pressure indications due to age. That's the story in my head about its past history, I could be wrong about the past history. But, look at the fireballs balls, and then, kaboom! This old stuff will not blow up your gun each and every shot, but, give it time.

    More on Kentucky Ballistics - Serbu

    Age of powder based on container & suitability for further use

    H4895 question

    9 mm loads

    I have been arguing with fools on another forum about a Garand blowup with Turkish surplus ammunition. Of course the deniers are infinitely flexible about why the kaboom cannot be due to deteriorated gunpowder, and I don't have the rifle, nor the ammunition, but it falls into a pattern. Take a look at the pictures, old ammunition ruined the shooter's day, and could have blown the rifle.


    Turkish MKaboomE 30-06

    https://www.reddit.com/r/M1Rifles/comments/qa52iz/turkish_mkaboome_3006/

    1964 MKE

    I was near 100rds in on my MKE ammo.


    Slow fire, 16rds of PPU, 15rds of MKE and BLAMO.

    I had the same thing happen with some 1963 Turk, fired 1 box at the range with good results, next week had the 13th round from the second box, split the head. The split was located by the extractor so all the gas came out the top of the rifle and didn't break the stock, damage was limited to some gas cutting on the bolt face, headspaced fine and fired some usgiM2 and some reloads fine on the next outing.
     
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  18. EricBu

    EricBu Member

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    Well, the dirty dark secret of old mil surplus ammo. If it sat in a wherehouse in a sealed tin, under moderate conditions......it's as good as the day it was made 60 years later. If it sat in Uncle Bobs garage in Yuma Arizona for 25 years, got sold at his estate sale, then rode back and forth to various gun shows, swap meets etc, then the tin was split and it was sold off in smaller packages, then some got shipped around, then somebody tumbled a batch to make it look shiny again, then it showed up at a gun show on the other coast........well, after 60 years of temp swings, humidity, and "shake,rattle,roll", that rifle powder has brittilized and broken down......and your pressures will be off the roof.
     
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  19. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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  20. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    Pretty sure the "7×64" on the case head refers to the caliber, not the production date.
     
  21. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Old gunpowder stored in cold environments will last longer because the deterioration of gunpowder is exponential with respect to temperature. But the stuff is still breaking down. Norway is very cold, I think I found record highs of 69 F, and yet, in this report, nitrocellulose based propellants are breaking down. Just takes longer.

    1978 AN EXAMINATION OF DETERIORATION OF AMMUNITION BY STORAGE

    These DTIC links break frequently, I assume the webmasters are constantly changing the software, but if the link breaks, go to DTIC and type in the report name.

    https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA055897
    https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA055897.pdf

    I am going to claim that any military surplus ammunition is on the market, because an ammunition technician inspected that lot, and per his written instructions, scrapped the lot because it was too dangerous to store any longer, or too dangerous to issue.

    The whole issue of Ammunition Inspection is a big dark hole with respect to the shooting society. The Navy is particularly concerned about their munitions exploding on ships, and I think this site is a great introduction to the topic of Insensitive Munitions.

    Navy Insensitive Munitions
    http://www.insensitivemunitions.org/

    If you search, you will find that battleships blew up due to old gunpowder auto igniting in the magazines. Not only the ship went down, but so did everyone on board.

    Disaster in Harbour: The Loss of HMS Vanguard

    So you see in Insensitive Munitions literature a constant concern about auto combustion. A ammunition depot or a ship exploding is a highly visible public event and creates a lot of work due to the bad publicity. Making ammunition that does not go off by itself takes pre planning and thought. Maybe some of you remember hearing about the Port of Chicago Explosion, which I am going to say, was just one highly visible explosion that made it into the news. And it was due to munitions that would explode if dropped. Today there is a 40 foot drop test munitions have to pass, back then, probably no drop test.

    This is something I found at the USMC Marine PM for Ammunition web site:

    Malfunction and Defect Reporting, Why it matters: Fall 2014 USMC Ammunition Quarterly

    Have you, as a supporting Unit Ammo Tech, been out on a range and had those who were training bring back ammunition, stating that some or all of the ammo did not fire or function the way it was supposed to? Have you been issuing out ammo or had ammo brought back to you on a range that was dented, leaking orange powder or otherwise defective? Have you wondered what to do with the ammunition assets in these scenarios?

    How about as a supporting Ammo Tech? Have you been in the process of completing a receipt (turn-in) and the supported unit technician tells you how some of the ammunition being turned in didn’t function correctly (there were duds, they were rusted/ dented, etc.), and wondered what the correct procedures were to handle these types of situations?

    The correct answer to each one of these scenarios is to have the supported unit technician complete a Malfunction or Defect Report as required per Marine Corps Order (MCO) 8025.1E.

    First, let’s review the definitions of a malfunction and a defect. Per MCO 8025.1E, a

    MALFUNCTION occurs when an ammunition item fails to function in accordance with the design, intent and expected performance when fired, launched or otherwise employed as specified. Malfunctions include the abnormal or premature functioning of an item as a result of normal handling, maintenance, storage, transportation or tactical employment.

    A DEFECT is an imperfection that may prevent an item from functioning as intended or result in a malfunction.

    Defects include, but are not limited to, cracked cartridge case, loose primer, missing safety pin, deteriorated or leaking propellant bags or containers, presence of excessive rust/corrosion, and obvious external damage, etc.

    Responsibilities of the Supported Unit

    When a supported unit experiences an ammo malfunction/defect, the following information needs to be provided, at a minimum:

    •Identification of the unit, with a Point of Contact (POC) with first- hand knowledge of the incident

    •Complete identification of ammunition, Department of Defense Identification Code, National Stock Number, Ammunition Lot Number (ALN) and Serial Number, as well as the quantity of how many rounds were fired and how many rounds failed

    This document can be found here: https://www.imgva.com/pmammo
    but like all Government documents, they are liable to be pulled back inside their firewalls and disappear forever.

    What is shows is that the USMC trained someone about Ammunition, pays that person to be available at a unit level and to record events. Which are forwarded to someone else in the chain of command, or an organization in the chain of command, and those groups are monitoring ammunition failure reports. At some point, the whole infrastructure decides that there are too many incidents of bad ammunition from one lot, and the stuff is pulled. This is costly, clearly beyond the imagination of deniers, but it exists in each service.

    There is a USMC PM for Ammunition, https://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Portfolios-and-Programs/Logistics-Combat-Element-Systems/Ammunition/ and you can believe that each service has someone performing the same functions of inspection, over sight, approval.

    In so far as the Turkish ammunition I referenced, I am quite certain the Turks went through their warehouses, pulled the ammunition that was too dangerous to use for practice, or too dangerous to keep in storage, and sold it on, laughing all the way to the bank. They know American's hunger like pigs for cheap ammunition, and believe that ammunition is immortal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
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  22. twarr1

    twarr1 Member

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    Smokeless propellants are inherently unstable. Meaning once it is made, it will begin to deteriorate even if stored under ideal conditions.
    How fast it deteriorates is dependent on many factors including;
    The level of nitration of the cellulose,
    How much free nitric acid is left from the production of the nitrocellulose. (How well it was washed)
    The quantity and quality of stabilizers used,
    Storage conditions,
    Etc
    Primer compounds, on the other hand, are inherently stable. They last indefinitely if not contaminated.
     
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  23. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I already made the correction, don't get old.
     
  24. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    any ill reports w/ Greek HXP ?

    .
     
  25. JimKirk

    JimKirk Member

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    I have seen many flat primers in my 55 years of reloading. None have been that flat!
     
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