Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

If you shoot sub-MOA at 25 yds offhand with handguns, do not bother to read

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Impureclient, Nov 6, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    18,570
    Location:
    Deep in the Ozarks
    A 1" group at 25 yards is a 4 MOA group.

    To achieve a MOA at 25 yards, you'd have to shoot a 1/4" group.
     
  2. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    16,604
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    The day I shoot a 1/4 inch five shot group at 25 yards with any of my handguns, is the day I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket on the way home, because that will be the luckiest day of my life. :)
     
  3. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Messages:
    594
    around here, many people confuse yards with feet, and consider one shot to be "all day"
     
  4. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Got here late, and haven't read every post...so this may have already been covered.

    I've noticed in a few examples that some people will brag about an amazingly small group that they've shot once, and ignore the others that weren't nearly as impressive. As to that, I once fired a 3/4-inch 3-shot group at 200 yards with a .308 Ruger Ultralight from the sitting position...and the rifle had never done better than 1.25 inches from the bags at half that distance. I considered that group to be a fluke...then and now.

    If you shoot enough, anything can happen. Once.

    Whenever I hear claims of that sort of accuracy, I wonder if it was a one-time thing. Depending on how prickly I'm feeling on that particular day, I may ask...or not...how many such groups the shooter has produced, because I'm not impressed by what has been done once, or even occasionally. The question is whether that shooter, using that rifle or pistol and that ammunition can do it on demand. If I'm in a particularly persnickety mood, I'll simply say: "Show me. Do it now. No warm-up shots. No alibis. Just load the gun and do it."
     
  5. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    13,233
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    "I'm not impressed by what has been done once, or even occasionally."

    I am a little. After all, look at all the many guns and shooters who've never had even an accidental small group.

    Would you rag on a guy who bragged about rolling a perfect 300 after 40 years of trying?

    John
     
  6. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Not unless he used that one incident as proof of his superior skill.

    I once hit a junk license plate at an estimated 400 yards from standing/offhand with a field grade rifle and a fixed 4-power scope.
    Could I do it again in 10 tries? I seriously doubt it.

    i.e.

    "Anybody can do it once. Impress me. Do it three times in a row...with a witness."
     
  7. TAKtical

    TAKtical Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    654
    Location:
    North east ohio
    Its similar to the fishing forums where everyone that you talk to has caught a 100lb+ fish. The best I can do at 25 yards is a 3" group shooting very slowly with a highly customized glock 17. I rarely shoot for that type of accuracy. Normally I will shoot as fast as possible and try to keep all 17 shots on a 6" shoot-n-c. Bullseye shooting to me is the most boring thing you can do with a pistol. I would rather run-n-gun in the woods and get 12" groups than stand pefectly still at an indoor range wasting ammo trying to get "sub MOA groups" just for internet bragging rights.
     
  8. Buck13

    Buck13 Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    737
    Location:
    Puget Sound Convergence Zone
    What are these tips of which you speak? My 5-6" groups at 25 yards and I would like to hear them.
     
  9. tuj

    tuj Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,983
    Location:
    Houston
    My best, (true off-hand, 1-handed), 5.4MOA at 20 yards, 10 shots.

    clean_target_sm.jpg
     
  10. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Messages:
    4,361
    Location:
    NC
    JohnBT's got a point Tuner. We all shoot around a bell curve, so statistically, to get such a small group by chance is vanishingly small if it's more than about 3 standard deviations from his norm. IOW, it may be a small group, and it may be well above his norm, but his baseline is pretty high. It would take someone of lesser skill several lifetimes to get such a group.


    Yowzer - your criteria is creeping up. It was "once, on demand", now it's gotta be 3 times...in a row...with a witness. Still, simply demanding a demo is low risk for the demander. Persnickety moods can be tempered if, say, the shooter gets his choice of 1911s from your safe if he does, in fact, back up his claim on your demand.


    Interestingly, I offered no tips on his trigger control or sight picture. The tips I offered were about avoiding the common traps that undermine our own ability. Generally, they fall into 2 categories:

    1. Forget about the target. Shooting well isn't about shooting small groups - it's about the fundamentals. The target is merely a recording device. You can look at it after you're done, but until then, each and every shot is about sight picture, trigger control, and mental management. Get those right, and the target takes care of itself.

    2. Take your time. A 5 shot group is a 5-shot group. Unless mandated, no one said it has to be on a silhouette target, a continuous string of 5 shots, or within the span of a few seconds. So use an appropriate bullseye-type target, and abort the shot if anything isn't quite right. You held too long, you suddenly had an "idiot thought", you grip changed slightly, etc etc. Lower the gun and your eyes (i.e., don't look at the target), get your mental focus back, relax, breaths, raise the gun & try again. Abort again, if necessary.
     
  11. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Not really. If he can do it 3 ties in a row, I'm satisfied that he can do it on demand.

    And I'm not really taking about the bell curve that we all labor under. I'm referring to a shockingly good performance that occasionally happens with mediocre shooters and mediocre guns...and then holding that up as representative. All of us have occasionally made a phenomenal shot. Most of us, however, don't pretend that it proves anything except that it was a phenomenal shot that we probably couldn't replicate.

    i.e. If you shoot at a running antelope a half-mile away with a 4-inch revolver, and drop it in its tracks, you...as a reasonable human being...wouldn't go around making the claim that you can kill running antelope a half-mile away with a 4-inch revolver.

    So...When I hear somebody make fanciful claims...I say: "Show me."

    I'm afraid that my 1911s are fairly pedestrian in the accuracy department. Surely none would present a serious threat at a Bullseye match. Intrinsic accuracy has never been my primary goal. Reliability is. At 25 yards, from the bags with good ammunition, my best one might stay inside 2 inches, but I wouldn't bet on it.
     
  12. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    13,233
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    "Anybody can do it once"

    Funny thing is, in my experience most of them never do. The majority of people I've seen rarely make a lucky shot, much less ever shoot a lucky group.

    This subject reminds me of a quote in a Harlan Ellison book:
    There are 10,000 species of fish in the sea... "I caught one, I caught one."

    John
     
  13. Mike OTDP

    Mike OTDP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,723
    Location:
    Somewhere in Maryland
    KuchTgtSmall.jpg
    Best work I've ever done. Shot at 25 yards, offhand. Both targets are 13-shot groups.
     
  14. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,806
    Location:
    ohio
    Lol... I can't see a 10 ring at 25 yards, let alone group at 2" offhand.
     
  15. Mike OTDP

    Mike OTDP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,723
    Location:
    Somewhere in Maryland
    You don't need to. Focus on sight alignment.
     
  16. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,122
    Nice

    Nice shooting, Mike.
    Tell us about the gun and the load.
    Pete
     
  17. tipoc

    tipoc Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Below is some average shooting.

    I shot this group at 25 yards leaning on the door of my vehicle. 38 Super Winchester White box 130 gr. FMJ. About 2 seconds between rounds. I do better off sandbags and worse off hand.

    38sup3.jpg

    Here is a J frame S&W 640 at 15 yards, 15 rounds from a rest. Speer Lawman ammo 158 gr. FMJ.

    m6404.jpg

    S&W M13 at 25 yards resting on a shooting box slow double action. Speer Lawman ammo 158 gr.

    snub251.jpg

    Colt GM at 25 yards from a Weaver. 29 rounds of Fiocchi 230 gr. ball.

    ccus3.jpg

    Colt Commander and a Detonics Combat Master from a Weaver stance 15 yards Remington 230 gr. ball.

    twoguns8.jpg

    A rapid fire drill with two Hi-Powers at 8 yards. Some one handed, double taps etc.

    hpdrills.jpg

    The above is average shooting. Some days I do better some worse. I tend to anticipate the shot and push into it.

    tipoc
     
  18. Mike OTDP

    Mike OTDP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,723
    Location:
    Somewhere in Maryland
    Pete - The gun is a percussion underhammer pistol made by Andreas Baumkircher. .36 caliber. Load is .350 RB/.010 patch / 12.5 grains Swiss #1 powder. Deep sub-six hold.
     
  19. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Messages:
    18,010
    Location:
    Illinois
    Wait.

    You did that offhand at 25 yards with a muzzleloader?

    Excuse me, I'll be back. I must vacate the internet space and go practice marksmanship.
     
  20. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,122
    Underhammer

    Mike : not to hijack the thread. Have an underhammer also. marvelous gun. Great trigger. No groups like those, though. Not yet.
    Pete
     
  21. fastest45ever

    fastest45ever Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    142
    Accuracy?

    I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do you weed out fact from fiction on accuracy when purchasing a new firearm?

    Depends on who you are, what God gave you, and how much money you can spend.

    Funny, but it also depends on what you are given to start with.

    I thought all rifles shot under 1" at 100 yards my first day at the range.
    All it takes is the guy taking you being an armourer for the Navy, building two matchgrade M1A's, and, two match grade AR-15's, with custom hand loads for both rifles and the best parts available, put together by an unmatched gunsmith.

    Off the bench it was really easy to shoot under an inch. I spent the next
    30 years trying to find a bolt action rifle that would do that.

    I've had revolvers, and most of my autos, that are hyper-accurate.
    Simple, either buy Freedom Arms revolvers, or have your guns built by
    a top flight custom gunsmith.

    I sold an FA 83 252. Guy put it in a Ransom rest, and it shoots 3/8" at 50 yards, with the right ammo. Never could do that with the gun, but I'm getting old.

    The answer to your original question is do your research. It's not rocket science, and it's only money.

    The range is a pretty good place to start. I've found that I can shoot certain guns well, even though I can't shoot the majority of their guns well.
    Glock 34 and 35 come to mind.

    The easiest way to get hyper-accurate guns is to become a gunwriter. Freedom Arms test fires every gun that goes out the door. I suspect the most accurate ones are sent to people to test, such as gunblast.com
    .
    The results are the guns, at their absolute highest potential. YMMV with the gun you get. I suspect almost all test guns are similarly picked.

    Problem is you might get one that's really sloppy, made at the end of a production run, that shoots 3 times bigger groups then the one tested.

    You pay your money, and take your chances. The more you spend, the more likely you are to get a tack driver, if you spend wisely, and pick a caliber that has inherent accuracy.

    Some forums are for your average gun owners. Look at the thread
    that asked what the best, most accurate gun you've ever shot was in this forum. That should give you an idea of who is on the forum.

    You might ask that question of all the forums you frequent, and get back to us on who has the highest % of shooters that shoot hyper-accurate guns.

    There is a .22lr forum I used to check out, but the stuff they shot was so exotic, and the groups pretty much so fantastic it was just amazing.
     
  22. tuj

    tuj Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,983
    Location:
    Houston
    :)

    pardini_sp.jpg
     
  23. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,122
    25 yards

    Earlier this year, Pat Franks set a new National record for a 2700 match at 25 yards for what is called conventional pistol - three stages of 90 shots each, .22rf, CF, .45.
    Franks shot an aggregate score of 2673 - 153X/2700 - 270X. Interpreting a bit....out of 270 shots, on average, 243 were 10s, though the actual distribution may have been different. The two Xrings involved, slow fire and sustained fire, are 0.67" and 1.69" in diameter respectively. Of course, one can score an X without the shot being completely inside the ring. The ten rings are approximately double that in diameter.
    Individual records for 20 shots precision shooting at 25 yards are all 199s. The best X count is John Zurek's CF score earlier this year at 199-10X.
    Not bad shooting...one hand unsupported.
     
  24. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,924
    Location:
    NC
    IMG_4461.jpg
    IMG_4270.jpg
    IMG_4030.jpg
    IMG_4695.jpg
    Typical 25yd targets.
     
  25. fastest45ever

    fastest45ever Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    142
    Can't tell from the pictures the kind model of the guns.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page