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IL - Officer loses gun, last seen on top of his car

Discussion in 'Activism' started by illinisnare, Feb 4, 2008.

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  1. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Then please accept my sincere apology; my remark was not at all intended to be offensive nor insulting, and I'm somewhat amazed that you found it arrogant. I simply intended to point out the quite realistic -- and very common to the anti faction -- notion held by many that if the cops are not all qualified to carry firearms, or firearms are not necessary for all cops (whether off-duty or retired), private citizens don't need firearms either. You have noticed the Brady campaign, and others, using similiar arguments, I would assume?

    And you are accusing me of reading something into a post? It has nothing to do with entitlement -- please refer back to the post I commented on:
    This to me indicated a level of misunderstanding as well as a distinct prejudice masked by a snide comment (which, in reality is pretty off-base in itself). My point being that if some of you, presumably on the pro-gun side, advance the argument that cops don't really need firearms any more than private citizens, regardless of whether we consider this to be true or not, it will affect the battle for all citizens to maintain the right to bear arms. This position is simply an acknowledgement of our current reality, it has nothing to do with a "sense of entitlement" or arrogance.
     
  2. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    no prejudice or misunderstanding at all.

    and in fact the reason cops are allowed off duty carry in Illinois is exactly because the state values their lives more than they value the lives of common citizens. look at all the laws mandating extra punishment for crimes against cops. its quite clear the state values them more then the rest of us.

    i did not advance an argument that cops should be disarmed, or that they don't need guns. thats something you brought to the argument out of nowhere. in fact, other than a few tongue-in-cheek comments here and there, i have not heard a serious argument for disarming cops put forth on this board.

    I will admit to having stated my opinion that congress exceeded its constitutionally authorized powers by enacting the 50 state cop carry bill. but that was not an argument that cops should not have guns. it was an argument against congress enacting something into law it has no constitutional authority to do.
     
  3. coyotehitman

    coyotehitman Member

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    I wish I knew what they were lax about. What I recognize is that most departments are overly critical of EVERYTHING.


    The actual reasoning behind the enhanced penalties for crimes against law enforcement personnel actively engaged in the performance of an official duty is based on this theory: LE personnel come into repeated daily contact with people that can, and often will, harm them. The enhanced penalties were enacted as a deterrent for those who would otherwise attempt to harm LE officers. While some might argue that enhanced penalties will not deter an offender, it has been proven to do so. Many offenders apprehended for violent crimes against the public and subsequently arrested without incident have admitted to researchers that the only reason they did not kill the arresting officer is because they "...knew they would fry for killing a cop."

    These enhanced penalties are neither automatic nor guaranteed. There are some cases where courts ruled the enhanced penalties did not apply. I was involved in one of these instances where someone attempted to murder an LE officer and a charge of simple assault was all the prosecutor would approve. For this crime, along with 10+ burglaries, several counts of safecracking, and felony domestic violence charges, the perpetrator received 13 months. He was out in 11 for being such an upstanding inmate. Six months after his release, he got tired of beating his on again/off again girlfriend and stabbed her. That was two years ago and as far as I know, he has already been released from prison again.

    If enhanced penalties were the norm, I believe they would lose effectiveness. I agree that everyones life is equally valuable, but the logic makes sense to me. Besides, enhancing the penalties for the worst offenders and putting them away for longer periods does offer benefits to society as a whole.


    I have noticed a handfull of folks on this forum who simply hate cops for no other reason than their status. A damned if they do, damned if they don't mentality. Over the years, I have also noticed that most cop haters fall into a few categories: criminals, folks who tried to become cops and couldn't make the cut (jealous folks), and folks who may have been wronged by the absolute minority of bad cops who have not yet washed out. Regardless, I encourage the folks who come here to bash LE to try to take a more neutral look at things. You might just find that your negative contacts with the police are a direct result of your attitude. If you look past your prejudices--and they are prejudices--you might find that we are hard working, caring, dedicated individuals who make many sacrifices to serve the public.

    Don't let our military haircuts and clean shaven faces fool you, we are no different than most law abiding citizens: we are human, have good days and bad, and the same concerns as most of the level headed folks on here. Forced rules and regulations govern our behavior on and off duty, however, and everyone holds us to a higher standard.

    My last post on this topic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  4. billdeserthills

    billdeserthills Member

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    Well people do make mistakes, fact that this guy is a cop should mean he has to carry his gun with a lanyard attached to it from now on!:D

    Really guys, we all share many things in common just for the fact that we all belong to this forum. I can't see any point in getting all pissed off about a current event happening.
     
  5. Sapper771

    Sapper771 Member

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    Coyotehitman: Thank You for explaining the big picture. +1
     
  6. Sixtigers

    Sixtigers Member

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    +1 to Coyotehitman.

    I'm a 20 year Navy veteran (God, that makes me feel old to say that).

    I ride (Harleys), and some of the people I ride with are cops/ex-cops. I've had a lot of fun relaxing with some of these guys.

    How can any pro-gunner/pro-shall-issue CCW'er worth his salt suggest that ex-cops/retired LE not get to carry CCW?

    Last time I checked, they were citizens--just like the rest of us.
    Good cause? Oh, hell yes. I should think so. These guys have pissed off a LOT of malcontents just by doing their jobs. Sometimes, malcontents hold grudges, and cops/ex-LE have families too.

    There are bad apples in every field of employment; unfortunately, with cops, these bad apples get some really horrendous PR. I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between cop bashers and anti-gunners, when it comes to the virility of their (oftentimes illogical) hatred. I've had bad pizzas delivered before. Didn't mean that I thought the delivery driver shouldn't be allowed to have CCW.

    When the point was made that denying ex/retired LE CCW would possibly limit/negate the chances of an average citizen getting CCW, I did not find that arrogant at all. In fact, I think there's a whole lot of truth there. If the average non-gunner Joe Citizen doesn't feel that an ex/retired cop should carry, what chance the average citizen?

    The RKBA applies to everyone. Everyone, or it's all crap. I would even submit that ex-cons should be able to carry, once they've paid their dues. Yeah, I said it. To not allow them to is a continuation of punishment that seems severe. Will some commit crimes again? Yeah. With guns? Yeah...and when they do, let's lock 'em up for a lot longer. It's called punishment.

    I'm a firm believer in liberty, and the RKBA, and the COTUS. I'm also aware that liberty isn't always easy.

    No, I'm not a cop, a cop groupie, or involved in any form of LE.
     
  7. cyclist

    cyclist Member

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    ....
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2008
  8. chrlefxtrt

    chrlefxtrt Member

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    My grandfather was a Police Lt. in Wichita Falls TX back in the day. He told new officers that they were not required to carry off duty, BUT if they were to witness a crime taking place while off duty and were unable to help because they were unarmed they would be in deep trouble.

    I have found that many depts sometimes require their officers to carry when not working becasue they are in a sense always on the job.
     
  9. Brian Dale

    Brian Dale Member

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    Huh. So far, I only do that with coffee cups.

    I believe that that's the real reason. However, it's the wrong reason.

    I love you guys as much as anybody, but all of our lives are worth having epoxified into law (yes, that's a word; I just invented it—use it if you wish) the principle that
    predation on one's fellow human beings will not be tolerated here.

    We don't exact additional penalties for criminals who perpetrate crimes against law enforcement officers "because the officers face danger by doing their jobs."

    We exact additional penalties for criminals who perpetrate crimes against law enforcement officers because
    They. Are. All. Of. Us,
    and the principle of What Law Is, as well.

    That's what that badge means.

    Now, with regard to the lost gun; in a perfect world, it would be found and returned like a misplaced book.

    We're not there yet.
     
  10. jimbob86

    jimbob86 Member

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    Sounds, to me, like a micromanaged, top-heavy bureaucracy. To many layers of managers coming up with rules and regs to justify their positions and personal power.......... just my Opinion- what do I know? I've never been to Chicago, nor am I likely to go..........

    Just keep in mind, all those layers of power provide cover for the corruption all that power breeds.
     
  11. Phil DeGraves

    Phil DeGraves Member

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    "How can any pro-gunner/pro-shall-issue CCW'er worth his salt suggest that ex-cops/retired LE not get to carry CCW?"

    The only one that suggested that was Old Dog.

    "Can anyone tell me why retired/off duty LEO can carry in IL and I can't?"
    This post does not say anything about not letting cops carry. I don't know why Old Dog thought it did.

    "Last time I checked, they were citizens--just like the rest of us."
    And that is precisely NOT the case as off duty and ex-cops are exempt from laws that prevent the regular law abiding citizen from carrying. That is the point being made; not disarming cops but applying the carry laws to any law abiding citizen that wishes to carry.
     
  12. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    This thread has declined into a debate -- which is not appropriate in the Activism forum. In fact, I really don't see any proposed activism early in the thread either.
     
  13. Brian Dale

    Brian Dale Member

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    Good heavens. I'd thought that I'd come across this in General Gun Discussions.

    :confused:
     
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