I'm confused. Private sale in another state - is it kosher?

[MGshaggy]

Many states have agreements with bordering states so residents may purchase rifles and shotguns. But only with the bordering state, and only long guns.

I live in Virginia and can buy a long gun from someone in North Carolina and vice versa.

You can only legally buy a long gun from someone in another state IF the seller is an FFL. Only an FFL can sell to a resident of another state IF the sale complies with the law of both states; an unlicensed individual can't sell a gun to a resident of another state regardless of whether its a long gun or a handgun, or if thier state thinks it OK - that is federal law. Agreements between states don't override federal law.

In most states, private transactions don't require a background check. But if you don't at least ask for a DL to make sure the buyer is a resident of your state, you're stupid. And you're probably setting yourself up for prosecution.

That I'll agree with 100%. Willful ignorance is not a good defense.

 

[EOD Guy]

Handguns can only be purchased by a resident of the state they live in. Period. Out of state transactions must go through an FFL.

Many states have agreements with bordering states so residents may purchase rifles and shotguns. But only with the bordering state, and only long guns.

I live in Virginia and can buy a long gun from someone in North Carolina and vice versa.

In most states, private transactions don't require a background check. But if you don't at least ask for a DL to make sure the buyer is a resident of your state, you're stupid. And you're probably setting yourself up for prosecution.

Such a sale is still illegal. It doesn't matter what state law says. Federal law prohibits the transaction.

 

[1911user]

What weak position are you referring to? Am I required to ask for ID if I sell my own personal gun in FTF sale? Do you ask for a DL when you sell a gun?

I'd think it a weak position if they have a strong case against you for interstate firearm sales without an FFL. It's a federal felony. The question is would they prosecute it, allow you to plead to reduced charges, drop it, or let you go undercover to catch someone else violating firearm laws?

I'm not sure if you are required to see an ID, but I do unless I know them. For a non-hunting firearm, I'll record some DL details and put that info in a safe place.

No interstate firearm sales without an FFL; it's not that hard to understand. I know a few people that will only sell through an FFL even if they live in the same state.

 

[answerguy]

I'd think it a weak position if they have a strong case against you for interstate firearm sales without an FFL.
.

That's kind of like a truism isn't it? Yes if they have a strong case against you. you are in trouble. But, AFAIK, I'm not required to ask for a DL when I sell a gun. So how would they have a case against me?

I'm not allowed to sell to a known felon either, but the catch is how do I know that he's a felon?

 

[Derby FALs]

Once again, the legalities befuddle me.

I live in Minnesota. Suppose I went over to Michigan and met a guy with a rifle to sell. Can I give him the cash and take the guns and go home or does this need to be handled through an FFL? Is this a Fed issue? Is it a state issue?

Quite illegal unless through a FFL.


(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]


A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

 

[1911user]

That's kind of like a truism isn't it? Yes if they have a strong case against you. you are in trouble. But, AFAIK, I'm not required to ask for a DL when I sell a gun. So how would they have a case against me?

I'm not allowed to sell to a known felon either, but the catch is how do I know that he's a felon?

At a minimum, you could ask the person if they live in this state and is there any legal reason they cannot possess a firearm?

Let's see, they have a gun that you owned now in the possession of a person in another state who will testify he bought it directly from you. Your defense would be that you "reasonably" believed it was a legal sale. Give your expensive defense lawyer all the ammo he can use to argue "reasonable" in the courtroom. Not liking the GCA68 is probably not going to pass as reasonable.

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

The sale may be kosher and Halal, but what it is you're buying, and bringing it back into your state is often the sticking point. Check federal and state laws on the part of your state of purchase and state of residence.

For instance, In CT where I used to live, I could have bought any rifle (that was legal in both states) for cash through another private party. It's bringing it back into NJ that was the issue, as I did not have a FOID card prior to this year...

 

[White Horseradish]

Ok. To sum it up, buying a gun in another state must go through a dealer.

So, suppose I meet this hypothetical guy in Michigan, and we both go down to the friendly neighborhood FFL. Can the FFL do the paperwork and hand me the gun to take home or does it absolutely have to be shipped?

Another question popped into my mind here. Suppose the owner and the gun visited me. There's been lots of talk about BUYING a gun in a different state. What about SELLING a gun in a different state?

I picked Michigan because it is a state over, definitely non-contigious.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

WH,
If you sell a long gun to a resident of another state, going thru a FFL, it's fine, and it doesn't matter which state the transaction takes place (MI vs MN). In fact, the transaction can happen at a FFL in OH. Maybe not IL, due to state laws.

If you sell a handgun in MI to a MI resident at a MI FFL, that's fine. The MI FFL will ensure the MI buyer has a MI "inspection" (we don't call it registration) form.

The only way a MI resident can buy an out-of-state handgun is to go thru a MI FFL. He can buy FTF from another MI resident, but still needs to get both parties to fill out the "inspection" form (available at local law-enforcement establishment).

 

[MGshaggy]

Ok. To sum it up, buying a gun in another state must go through a dealer.

So, suppose I meet this hypothetical guy in Michigan, and we both go down to the friendly neighborhood FFL. Can the FFL do the paperwork and hand me the gun to take home or does it absolutely have to be shipped?

Another question popped into my mind here. Suppose the owner and the gun visited me. There's been lots of talk about BUYING a gun in a different state. What about SELLING a gun in a different state?

I picked Michigan because it is a state over, definitely non-contigious.

You can buy a long gun from an FFL in another state if the sale complies with the state law of both states. Thus, if you live in Minnesota and you drive to meet the seller in Michigan, the two of you can then go to either a Michigan or or Minnesota FFL to transfer the gun to you. If the gun is a long gun, you can go to an FFL in either state. If its a handgun, you'd have to go to an FFL in your (the buyer's) state.

Where the transaction actually takes place is of little consequence (at least in this hypothetical); what matters most is the state of each party's citizenship. A citizen of one state (who is not an FFL) cannot legally buy or sell directly to a citizen (who is not an FFL) of another state. Note that I emphasize the word "directly". You can sell a gun to a citizen of another state but the sale & actual physical transfer must proceed through an FFL.

 

[answerguy]

How is the ordinary person supposed to know that they aren't allowed to buy a gun in another state? Not everyone visits websites like this.
Sure if you go to a gun shop to buy a pistol, the store will tell you you can't do that, but in a private transaction there is no poster on the wall.

 

[erik the bold]

But, AFAIK, I'm not required to ask for a DL when I sell a gun.

If it's a handgun in Michigan, you sure better be looking at that DL.... You also better make sure you fill out the pistol sales record found here


.

 

[MGshaggy]

How is the ordinary person supposed to know that they aren't allowed to buy a gun in another state? Not everyone visits websites like this.
Sure if you go to a gun shop to buy a pistol, the store will tell you you can't do that, but in a private transaction there is no poster on the wall.

The ordinary person is supposed to ask and figure out the law. I know its a cliche, but ignorance of the law is no defense.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Summary of fed regs. State regs may differ.


An unlicensed person may buy or sell any legal-to-own firearm to an unlicensed person within his/her state of residency, provided neither party has any other qualifying restrictions on firearms ownership.

See Item B1 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a33



Any transfer of ownership between unlincened persons that involves crossing a state line must be processed through an FFL. It is legal for the seller to ship a firearm directly to an FFL in any state.

See Item B3 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2
See Item B9 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8



An FFL can sell handguns only to unlicensed persons who state of residency is the same as the FFL. The only exemption to this is the situation of dual residency.

See item B13 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b12



An FFL may sell long guns to a person from any state, provided that the state laws for both the FFL and the buyer allow the transaction.

See Item B2 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1



Fed regs do not require any records be kept by individuals who lawfully buy or sell a firearm within their own state of residence. Knowingly transferring a firearm to someone who cannot legally own it is specifically prohibited.

See Item B17 - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b16


Brad

 

[answerguy]

The ordinary person is supposed to ask and figure out the law. I know its a cliche, but ignorance of the law is no defense.

Well actually; ignorance is a defense it's just not a perfect defense. For example if there are no speed limit signs up and you get pulled over and get a ticket because the officer says the speed limit is 5 MPH you have a defense. If you drive through an area with no speed limit signs at 95 MPH you have no defense.

 

[JNewell]

Fed regs do not require any records be kept by individuals who lawfully buy or sell a firearm within their own state of residence. Knowingly transferring a firearm to someone who cannot legally own it is specifically prohibited.

True, but I will add that doing so is d@mned good practice. I sold a pistol years ago. Several years later the ATF was all over me, wanting to know about the pistol, which had been found at a crime scene. Having the transferee, transfer date and related info was a big and immediate help.

 

[MGshaggy]

Well actually; ignorance is a defense it's just not a perfect defense. For example if there are no speed limit signs up and you get pulled over and get a ticket because the officer says the speed limit is 5 MPH you have a defense. If you drive through an area with no speed limit signs at 95 MPH you have no defense.

Apples and oranges. Your example is not a case of ignorance of the law being a defense; its a lack of notice. Drivers are presumed to know speed limits and have notice of them by posted signs on the road. The driver would not have had notice of the speed limit if there were no signs on the road so he could not know the law and conform his actions to it. In contrast, all the federal laws we have referenced are published for all to view where we all know them to be - in the US Code. Thus you have notice of the law.

Your example would be more apt if speed limit signs were posted, and a driver could get off because he didn't see (or chose to ignore) the sign.

 

[engineer151515]

..........Agreements between states don't override federal law......

One of the reasons this is so confusing. For example: CCW and school zones. This website attempts to explain Arizona's laws

http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/schoolzone.asp

Federal Law: Federal law does not preempt Arizona law. It does however, provide for federal jurisdiction if there is no state or local law in place addressing a specific situation or incident.

Who would have thought? Federal law does not pre-empt State law?


Anyway, I would not want to be the test case for any firearms law. For the transfer fee money, I'd use an FFL across state lines.

 

[MGshaggy]

One of the reasons this is so confusing. For example: CCW and school zones. This website attempts to explain Arizona's laws

http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/schoolzone.asp

Federal Law: Federal law does not preempt Arizona law. It does however, provide for federal jurisdiction if there is no state or local law in place addressing a specific situation or incident.

Who would have thought? Federal law does not pre-empt State law?

Actually it does - where the two conflict, federal law trumps state or local law. Where the is no conflict, both can apply. In the case of the school zones you reference above, federal law provides a specific exception for state law to allow gun within the school zone. See 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(ii)Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

 

[answerguy]

Apples and oranges. Your example is not a case of ignorance of the law being a defense; its a lack of notice. Drivers are presumed to know speed limits and have notice of them by posted signs on the road. The driver would not have had notice of the speed limit if there were no signs on the road so he could not know the law and conform his actions to it. In contrast, all the federal laws we have referenced are published for all to view where we all know them to be - in the US Code. Thus you have notice of the law.

Your example would be more apt if speed limit signs were posted, and a driver could get off because he didn't see (or chose to ignore) the sign.

So before I get out of bed in the morning I should check the US Code to see if there are any changes in the law?

 

[MGshaggy]

So before I get out of bed in the morning I should check the US Code to see if there are any changes in the law?

If you're really paranoid, sure. Otherwise I'd just be sure to make a reasonable inquiry into the law when engaging in activities that are highly likely to be regulated under federal or state law...like the interstate sale of firearms.

 

[answerguy]

If you're really paranoid, sure. Otherwise I'd just be sure to make a reasonable inquiry into the law when engaging in activities that are highly likely to be regulated under federal or state law...like the interstate sale of firearms.

If I have a shotgun for sale at my garage sale, is it your opinion that I have to ask him for ID? A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If I have a shotgun for sale at my garage sale, is it your opinion that I have to ask him for ID? A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

Do you have to? No. Would it be a very, VERY good idea? Yes.

Brad

 

[Shootcraps]

Well actually; ignorance is a defense it's just not a perfect defense. For example if there are no speed limit signs up and you get pulled over and get a ticket because the officer says the speed limit is 5 MPH you have a defense. If you drive through an area with no speed limit signs at 95 MPH you have no defense.

Virginia law says that if there is no sign posted, the speed limit is 25mph.

Ignorance isn't even close to being a fair defense. It's the seller's responsibility to know and abide by the laws as they pertain to the seller. Same for the buyer.

 

[MGshaggy]

If I have a shotgun for sale at my garage sale, is it your opinion that I have to ask him for ID? A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

I don't know Michigan law so I can't comment on the state law implications. Under federal law, however, there is no affirmative duty to check his ID, BUT if it turns out he's a felon or from another state, you can be charged and quite possibly convicted of a felony for an illegal sale.

So to give you a simple yes or no answer - No. But I hope you get a good price for that shotgun, because if you're wrong and he's a prohibited purchaser you can be convicted of a felony, go to jail, forever lose the right to vote, the right to ever legally own, possess, or purchase a firearm again, and thousands of dollars in legals fees. Ignorance is not a defense, and willful ignorance much less so.