HKcenterMass
Member
How about a combination? Shotplacement + .45... or shot placement + .45 super 
I'm not so sure about the .45 ACP anymore
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Bobarino
member
in reading the ballistics tables for various factory JHP loads, it seems to mee that the 9mm 115gr +p at ~1250 fps, .40S&W 135-155gr at ~1150fps, and the .45 165-185gr +P at 1050 fps all deliver about 500 ft/lbs of enery into the target. yes the .45 makes a bigger hole than 9mm, but the size of the entry wound doesn't necessarily translate into more rapid blood loss. remember there is stretch cavity and permantent would cavity sizes to consider also. but those also depend of what kind of tissue the bullet goes in to. want rappid blood loss? shoot them in the liver. liver tissue doesn't stretch very far before it tears, so a good expanding hollow point will darn near explode a liver from the stretch cavity effect. want them go down now? shoot them in the neck and hit the spine. CNS overload will paralyze an attacker. want both? shoot them in the heart. rapid blood loss and the spine is right behind it. best chance of one or the other or both happening. this is just my opinion by the way, but to me, caliber size really doesn't make that big of a difference. ALL handgun calibers are underpowered for stopping a crazed, drugged up attacker. use whatever floats your boat. after 100 years of modern handguns, nobody has come up with the "miracle bullet" in the "miracle caliber" they all work well for all intents and purposes, and they all are inadequte. its all just acedemic debate.
that said, i've chosen the .40S&W 155gr hydra-shok's. in my opinion, it is the best compromise between capacity, energy transfer, velocity, managable recoil, ammo choices, and "stopping power" if there is such a thing. (ok i admit it, i was influenced by Marshall and Sanow too.)
all handgun calibers are a bunch of compromises. speed vs. weight. capacity vs. bullet size. etc etc ad nauseum.
whatever makes you more secure and confident in your firearm/shooting abilities, and the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you carry should be your calibler of choice.
just my opinion(s)
Bobby
that said, i've chosen the .40S&W 155gr hydra-shok's. in my opinion, it is the best compromise between capacity, energy transfer, velocity, managable recoil, ammo choices, and "stopping power" if there is such a thing. (ok i admit it, i was influenced by Marshall and Sanow too.)
all handgun calibers are a bunch of compromises. speed vs. weight. capacity vs. bullet size. etc etc ad nauseum.
whatever makes you more secure and confident in your firearm/shooting abilities, and the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you carry should be your calibler of choice.
just my opinion(s)
Bobby
Scott Evans
Moderator Emeritus
Concur!
While the .45 acp has been proven in combat it is not the best caliber in all situations.
1. Penetration: The 9mm has 10 times the penetration of the .45acp. Proven in U.S. miltary test trials as far back as 1948. Steel helmets were penetrated at a phenominal 130 yards with the 9mm an only at a scant 30 yards with the .45 ACP. No peneteration , no incapacitation. People often hide behind cars, doors , walls etc. Heavy clothing and jackets can also slow down a bullet. A person shot first through the arm will often stop or slow down the .45acp to the point that it will not penetrate deeply enough into the body. Even the tremendous peneteration of the 9mm is often not enough in this senario as witnessed in the famous Miami shoot out where a 9mm went through the arm and stopped just short of the heart. The .45 would not have even done this well in the same situation. AS the range increases the effectiveness of the .45 ACP goes down dramatically.
2. Recoil. Most people simply do not shoot the full powder .45acp loads as well as the milder recoiling 9mm.
3. Capacity. The nine can hold up to over double the amount of firepower. There is never enough ammo to spare in a firefight.
4. Size and weight. Most but not all .45's are often bigger , bulkier and heavier than similiar guns in 9mm. As the size goes down the recoil goes up dramatically in small .45 ACP guns as compared to similiar size small 9mm guns.
1. Penetration: The 9mm has 10 times the penetration of the .45acp. Proven in U.S. miltary test trials as far back as 1948. Steel helmets were penetrated at a phenominal 130 yards with the 9mm an only at a scant 30 yards with the .45 ACP. No peneteration , no incapacitation. People often hide behind cars, doors , walls etc. Heavy clothing and jackets can also slow down a bullet. A person shot first through the arm will often stop or slow down the .45acp to the point that it will not penetrate deeply enough into the body. Even the tremendous peneteration of the 9mm is often not enough in this senario as witnessed in the famous Miami shoot out where a 9mm went through the arm and stopped just short of the heart. The .45 would not have even done this well in the same situation. AS the range increases the effectiveness of the .45 ACP goes down dramatically.
2. Recoil. Most people simply do not shoot the full powder .45acp loads as well as the milder recoiling 9mm.
3. Capacity. The nine can hold up to over double the amount of firepower. There is never enough ammo to spare in a firefight.
4. Size and weight. Most but not all .45's are often bigger , bulkier and heavier than similiar guns in 9mm. As the size goes down the recoil goes up dramatically in small .45 ACP guns as compared to similiar size small 9mm guns.
OKC .45 ACP
Member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
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Since I CCW
I don't necessarily want overpenetration. I don't want my bullet to penetrate and hit an innocent bystander. Since I'm probably not going to be shooting people wearing helmets, that interesting fact doesn't apply to my situation.
If I recall correctly, our military adopted the .45 because it stopped people from doing bad things to our troops. The standard issue S&W .38 didn't stop people from plunging a spear in their chests. The .45 ACP did. We switched to 9mm due to political B.S. to make NATO people happy. Seems they were shooting .308, .223, and wanted the U.S. to adopt a "European" caliber. Poor decision. The word from the troops in Afghanistan is that 9mm doesn't stop people from doing bad things to people. .45 ACP does. That's why .45's are as sought after as diamonds by our troops right now. That's why Delta Force carries a .45 ACP 1911. I'd take their word for what works over anything I would read in a ballistics table. That's my 02 cents.
Be safe,
I don't necessarily want overpenetration. I don't want my bullet to penetrate and hit an innocent bystander. Since I'm probably not going to be shooting people wearing helmets, that interesting fact doesn't apply to my situation.
If I recall correctly, our military adopted the .45 because it stopped people from doing bad things to our troops. The standard issue S&W .38 didn't stop people from plunging a spear in their chests. The .45 ACP did. We switched to 9mm due to political B.S. to make NATO people happy. Seems they were shooting .308, .223, and wanted the U.S. to adopt a "European" caliber. Poor decision. The word from the troops in Afghanistan is that 9mm doesn't stop people from doing bad things to people. .45 ACP does. That's why .45's are as sought after as diamonds by our troops right now. That's why Delta Force carries a .45 ACP 1911. I'd take their word for what works over anything I would read in a ballistics table. That's my 02 cents.
Be safe,
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
OKC if you'd specified "FMJ" or hardball, I'd completely agree with you. IMHO, I've found that 9mm JHPs work fine. Check Stephen Camp's doe for a good pic of what a proper 9mm JHP can do. 
"No penetration, no incapacitation."
Correct.
See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm (Peruse the paragraphs under "Ammunition Selection Criteria").
"People often hide behind cars, doors, walls, etc. Heavy clothing and jackets can also slow down a bullet."
Exactly.
Where penetration of intervening barriers is called for, the 10mm Auto bested both the 9mm and the .45 acp in the FBI's testing of barriers frequently encounter in LE, e.g., wood, various metals and auto glass. It also proved to be the most accurate caliber of those tested.
See Hall's report discussing this:
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html
"The .45 would not have even done this well in the same situation [Miami, 4/11/86]. AS the range increases the effectiveness of the .45 ACP goes down dramatically."
Sheer speculation as to the .45. However, range and energy dissipation aren't issues for the 10mm, even when loaded to less than full-strength. Unfortunately, the 10mm wasn't an option for Bureau agents in 1986, and Detective Crocket was busy elsewhere. For that matter, at the distances encountered in the Miami shootout, even the 180gn .40S&W would have penetrated Platt's vitals (pulmonary artery, lung & heart) further than did the 115gn 9mm STHP, which proved to be a miserable failure when needed most.
"2. Recoil. Most people simply do not shoot the full powder .45acp loads as well as the milder recoiling 9mm."
Way overstated. Some people find a .380 tough to hang on to. Then there are females, like Tamara & others, who have no problems shooting the more "energetic cartridges." (See, e.g., M&S, "Stopping Power" (2001), pp. 272-273). Then again, some people are wusses. So what?
"3. Capacity. ..."
Only an issue if you plan on missing a lot. Many don't, which is why single-stack 1911s holding less than 10-rounds are still popular.
"4. Size and weight. ..."
Possibly that's an issue where large-framed all-steel autoloaders are involved (which some people still favor ), but with the proliferation of the smaller polymer Glocks, available in all common calibers, it's become a nonissue.
Correct.
See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm (Peruse the paragraphs under "Ammunition Selection Criteria").
"People often hide behind cars, doors, walls, etc. Heavy clothing and jackets can also slow down a bullet."
Exactly.
Where penetration of intervening barriers is called for, the 10mm Auto bested both the 9mm and the .45 acp in the FBI's testing of barriers frequently encounter in LE, e.g., wood, various metals and auto glass. It also proved to be the most accurate caliber of those tested.
See Hall's report discussing this:
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html
"The .45 would not have even done this well in the same situation [Miami, 4/11/86]. AS the range increases the effectiveness of the .45 ACP goes down dramatically."
Sheer speculation as to the .45. However, range and energy dissipation aren't issues for the 10mm, even when loaded to less than full-strength. Unfortunately, the 10mm wasn't an option for Bureau agents in 1986, and Detective Crocket was busy elsewhere. For that matter, at the distances encountered in the Miami shootout, even the 180gn .40S&W would have penetrated Platt's vitals (pulmonary artery, lung & heart) further than did the 115gn 9mm STHP, which proved to be a miserable failure when needed most.
"2. Recoil. Most people simply do not shoot the full powder .45acp loads as well as the milder recoiling 9mm."
Way overstated. Some people find a .380 tough to hang on to. Then there are females, like Tamara & others, who have no problems shooting the more "energetic cartridges." (See, e.g., M&S, "Stopping Power" (2001), pp. 272-273). Then again, some people are wusses. So what?
"3. Capacity. ..."
Only an issue if you plan on missing a lot. Many don't, which is why single-stack 1911s holding less than 10-rounds are still popular.
"4. Size and weight. ..."
Possibly that's an issue where large-framed all-steel autoloaders are involved (which some people still favor
), but with the proliferation of the smaller polymer Glocks, available in all common calibers, it's become a nonissue.
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DeltaElite
Member
Why is this even debated.
The 10mm outperforms the 9mm and 45acp easily.
Ok, continue bickering.
The 10mm outperforms the 9mm and 45acp easily.
Ok, continue bickering.
Well that is a 20% kill rate. Just shoot them 5 times each! Try that with a 1911 against more than one person!
Seriously, if you had to go up against a couple of Hells Angels armed only with a pistol and no time to reload or couldn't find/get to your extra mag, what would you want? Lets keep it somewhat real and say that the gun would have to be carriable and on your person when you needed it.
I would pick a hi cap something, I don't care if it is 9m .40 or .45 so long as I had enough ammo and I could carry it and shoot it well. That leaves out the Glock 21, it is just a tad to big in the grip for me. I really like the looks, feel and wieght of the Walther 99 or whatever it is called. Ruger P95 would be good too. Sorry CZ-75 and BHP, your too heavy, Glocks are too thick and 1911s are not hi caps. Sigs would work also.
Where penetration of intervening barriers is called for, the 10mm Auto bested both the 9mm and the .45 acp in the FBI's testing of barriers frequently encounter in LE, e.g., wood, various metals and auto glass. It also proved to be the most accurate caliber of those tested
I read with great interest your reply and it has a lot of merit as to the opposing side of the argument which is bigger and faster is better but lets take a hard look at the history of the 10mm.
The 10mm has been a resounding failure both commercially and in police circles. Why?
One reason is that the 10mm is such a powerful handgun that it faced the same problems the 44 magnum did back when the police used the antique and outmoded revolvers. Just too much muzzle blast and recoil and a weapon that had to be made very large and heavy to take all the pounding that the 44 magnum generated. This problem was exacurbated dramatically when a like cartridge was put into an automatic pistol that was designed originally for a far weaker recoiling round which was the .45 acp. Many handguns that were chambered for this cartridge literally self-destructed in record time and the few handguns that did hold up had to be built so heavy that it was not a very practical pistol to carry even in a holster for police use.
There are limits as to what is practical in a pistol cartridge. Once you exceed a certain amount of recoil, muzzle blast, weight and service life of the gun you reach a point that makes the weapon impractical for everyday use. This is exactly why both the 44 magnum and 10mm both failed. Dirty Harry in the fictional movies may look good on screen but reality is quite another story.
I read with great interest your reply and it has a lot of merit as to the opposing side of the argument which is bigger and faster is better but lets take a hard look at the history of the 10mm.
The 10mm has been a resounding failure both commercially and in police circles. Why?
One reason is that the 10mm is such a powerful handgun that it faced the same problems the 44 magnum did back when the police used the antique and outmoded revolvers. Just too much muzzle blast and recoil and a weapon that had to be made very large and heavy to take all the pounding that the 44 magnum generated. This problem was exacurbated dramatically when a like cartridge was put into an automatic pistol that was designed originally for a far weaker recoiling round which was the .45 acp. Many handguns that were chambered for this cartridge literally self-destructed in record time and the few handguns that did hold up had to be built so heavy that it was not a very practical pistol to carry even in a holster for police use.
There are limits as to what is practical in a pistol cartridge. Once you exceed a certain amount of recoil, muzzle blast, weight and service life of the gun you reach a point that makes the weapon impractical for everyday use. This is exactly why both the 44 magnum and 10mm both failed. Dirty Harry in the fictional movies may look good on screen but reality is quite another story.
DeltaElite
Member
Is the 10mm that powerful or are people just wimps?
I vote wimps.
Sadly buyers go with what the military or police use, what their friends tell them to buy or what the gun rags suggest.
When the data is examined with a non-biased eye, it is easy to see the superiority of the 10mm in both its versatility and power.
To believe anything else is to deny the facts.
Shoot what you like, but don't try to tell me that the 10mm is inferior to 9mm, 40sw or 45acp.
Thanks for your cooperation.
I vote wimps.
Sadly buyers go with what the military or police use, what their friends tell them to buy or what the gun rags suggest.
When the data is examined with a non-biased eye, it is easy to see the superiority of the 10mm in both its versatility and power.
To believe anything else is to deny the facts.
Shoot what you like, but don't try to tell me that the 10mm is inferior to 9mm, 40sw or 45acp.
Thanks for your cooperation.
The artery would be destroyed if he had been using a 9mm instead of a .45 Super...
When you make a good hit, caliber doesn't matter much. When you don't make a good hit, caliber doesn't matter at all.
Like someone once said about hunting with camo. "If you move, critters will see you even if you're wearing camo. If you don't move they won't see you even without camo."
It's all technique.
New_comer
Member
Well, well...
Another convert to the fast and light academy....
You're most welcome to the club!
Another convert to the fast and light academy....
You're most welcome to the club!
HKcenterMass
Member
only 20% kill rate with hand guns? Damn the 9mm for killing that average!
But really, I wouldnt say that capacity is an issue with the right platform. 12+1 in my HK 45...3 less than some 9mm high caps. Weight isnt an issue, ive got the polymer frame going on there...penetration, no big deal, +p or +p+, all that and a bigger projectile... plus, living a climate that is only without heavy clothing for 3-4 mos, I wouldnt have to worry about my 9mm JHP expanding... if my .45 JHP expands, sweet! if it doesnt, i'm still a step ahead. I'm not feeling under gunned with the 9mm, but i do feel better protected with the .45 just MHO.
But really, I wouldnt say that capacity is an issue with the right platform. 12+1 in my HK 45...3 less than some 9mm high caps. Weight isnt an issue, ive got the polymer frame going on there...penetration, no big deal, +p or +p+, all that and a bigger projectile... plus, living a climate that is only without heavy clothing for 3-4 mos, I wouldnt have to worry about my 9mm JHP expanding... if my .45 JHP expands, sweet! if it doesnt, i'm still a step ahead. I'm not feeling under gunned with the 9mm, but i do feel better protected with the .45 just MHO.
I bought some CorBon +p 9mm JHP 125 grain 1250fps 434 ft/lbs blah blah blah bullets at the local gun store.
I then proceeded to load them 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 with Winchester white box 115 ball ammo. I then shot target with them out of my Steyr M9...to my surprise, I could not tell the difference in recoil....I actually lost track of which shot was up next..
I was expecting some sort of thrilling difference in recoil...but no dice.
I am assuming that it is due to the design of the steyr, low bore axis etc...The gun recoils like a pellet gun as it is....But I was dissapointed....I was hoping to scream WOOOOOHOOOOO! after the first CorBon Shot.
I then proceeded to load them 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 with Winchester white box 115 ball ammo. I then shot target with them out of my Steyr M9...to my surprise, I could not tell the difference in recoil....I actually lost track of which shot was up next..
I was expecting some sort of thrilling difference in recoil...but no dice.
I am assuming that it is due to the design of the steyr, low bore axis etc...The gun recoils like a pellet gun as it is....But I was dissapointed....I was hoping to scream WOOOOOHOOOOO! after the first CorBon Shot.
shot placement, first last and always shot placement. That being said 9mm has overpenetration (or in the case of silver tips UNDER penetration) issues which preclude me from ever taking it seriously as a selfdefense round.
I prefer the .45 because I can shoot it well and I know that even if the guy is wearing body armor two or three hits on COM will insure at least a few broken ribs and a punctured lung...that sort of thing tends to slow a person down, y'know?
10mm would be nice but I can't afford it (as in even if I could afford a 10mm handgun, the couple of thousand rounds I'd need to gain and maintain proficiency would cost more bucks than simply sticking with the .45 that the army paid for me to learn how to shoot right).
I prefer the .45 because I can shoot it well and I know that even if the guy is wearing body armor two or three hits on COM will insure at least a few broken ribs and a punctured lung...that sort of thing tends to slow a person down, y'know?
10mm would be nice but I can't afford it (as in even if I could afford a 10mm handgun, the couple of thousand rounds I'd need to gain and maintain proficiency would cost more bucks than simply sticking with the .45 that the army paid for me to learn how to shoot right).
ojibweindian
Member
I'd like to re-iterate my previous post:
Shoot them till they drop, or shoot them till you run out of bullets. Do NOT bet your life on the mythical stopping power of the .45, or the penetration abilities of the 9mm, ad nauseum, ad infintum.
People can take an awful lot of punishment, and short of a 155mm howitzer (obvious exageration to illustrate a point), there isn't any caliber that I trust to put a person down in one shot.
Shoot them till they drop, or shoot them till you run out of bullets. Do NOT bet your life on the mythical stopping power of the .45, or the penetration abilities of the 9mm, ad nauseum, ad infintum.
People can take an awful lot of punishment, and short of a 155mm howitzer (obvious exageration to illustrate a point), there isn't any caliber that I trust to put a person down in one shot.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
To ojibweindian's statement I would add that there are all sorts of examples of people surviving all sorts of ballistic damage and still fighting, ESPECIALLY from handguns of every caliber. If you only option is to use a handgun, then use it, but know that you are in deep doodoo already by putting your life on the line by using a very less than ideal tool.
Oh, and I really liked the statement about 9 mm having 10 times the penetration of .45 acp. That was funny!! Next time I am attacked by guys protecting themselves with vintage WWII steel pot helmets, I will break out the 9 mm.
Oh, and I really liked the statement about 9 mm having 10 times the penetration of .45 acp. That was funny!! Next time I am attacked by guys protecting themselves with vintage WWII steel pot helmets, I will break out the 9 mm.
Rob96
Member
I have also seen test results where the 9mm does a better job of penetration than the 45acp. Comparing the 9mm+p 124gr Gold Dot to the 230gr Gold Dot, the 9mm did better against barrieirs than the 45acp.
Caliber
Shoot what you can afford to practice with.
9mm & .45 can be had from Russian manufacturers or army surplus all day long for not much money. All those other calibers cost half again or twice as much for simple practice ammo.
As CCW holders, we need to practice at least once a week. Not only is it a great way to bleed off stress at the end of a trying day, it's practical and fun. Costs are $5.00 range fee plus a couple bucks for targets and shoot & Sees. $10.50 for a box of 100 Winchester 115gr 9mm from Wal-Mart or online Brown Bear for the same price. I usually shoot 150 rounds at a setting practicing self made up drills. Such as draw and fire in under 2 seconds, Draw and fire two shots in 3 seconds. I also practice changing clips by having one in the chamber with an empty clip. The pistol locks open, I then PRACTICE lifting my shirt with my left hand, opening the flap on my mag scabbard, ejecting the empty, and reloading, hit the release and shoot TWICE. Anyway, I have other drills that I've made up but by the time I've gone through my routine, I've burned about $25.00 in ammo, targets and range fees. Once a week of this is $100.00 a month. Had I purchased a 10mm that would easily have to be a $200.00 a month or more and the budget is stretched enough as it is. Reloading isnt' an option for me right now as I don't have the garage space.
Saying this, I chose a 9mm over a .45 because of the extra mag capacity.
Shoot what you can afford to practice with.
Shoot what you can afford to practice with.
9mm & .45 can be had from Russian manufacturers or army surplus all day long for not much money. All those other calibers cost half again or twice as much for simple practice ammo.
As CCW holders, we need to practice at least once a week. Not only is it a great way to bleed off stress at the end of a trying day, it's practical and fun. Costs are $5.00 range fee plus a couple bucks for targets and shoot & Sees. $10.50 for a box of 100 Winchester 115gr 9mm from Wal-Mart or online Brown Bear for the same price. I usually shoot 150 rounds at a setting practicing self made up drills. Such as draw and fire in under 2 seconds, Draw and fire two shots in 3 seconds. I also practice changing clips by having one in the chamber with an empty clip. The pistol locks open, I then PRACTICE lifting my shirt with my left hand, opening the flap on my mag scabbard, ejecting the empty, and reloading, hit the release and shoot TWICE. Anyway, I have other drills that I've made up but by the time I've gone through my routine, I've burned about $25.00 in ammo, targets and range fees. Once a week of this is $100.00 a month. Had I purchased a 10mm that would easily have to be a $200.00 a month or more and the budget is stretched enough as it is. Reloading isnt' an option for me right now as I don't have the garage space.
Saying this, I chose a 9mm over a .45 because of the extra mag capacity.
Shoot what you can afford to practice with.
Fuzzy math. 
"Had I purchased a 10mm that would easily have to be a $200.00 a month or more ... Reloading isnt' an option for me right now..."
I don't reload for 10mm, but let's take your numbers and actually do the math with easily acquired 10mm practice ammo from Georgia Arms: 1000rd case of 10mm/180gn FMJ. Cost = $180. That's 18-cents per rd/$9 per 50rds.
"I usually shoot 150 rounds at a setting ..."
Great. Doing the same, I've just shot up $27 worth of 10mm ammo.
"...I've burned about $25.00 in ammo, targets and range fees. Once a week of this is $100.00 a month."
Well, I pretty much make my own targets or occasionally buy what I need super cheap in volume at gunshows. But let's stick with ammo costs alone. A weekly outings that consumes $27 in 10mm ammo each time is $108 per month in practice ammo cost. Even factoring-in for range fees and the use of gold plated targets, you're still nowhere near "$200 a month."
"Shoot what you can afford to practice with."
No argument there. And if you know where to look, you can find competitively-priced 10mm practice ammo that's no harder on your wallet - and in some cases easier on it - than .40S&W, .357Sig or .45acp from the Big Three.
Sure, 9mm can be had even cheaper for practice, which is why there's no downside to owning one for that purpose.
"Had I purchased a 10mm that would easily have to be a $200.00 a month or more ... Reloading isnt' an option for me right now..."
I don't reload for 10mm, but let's take your numbers and actually do the math with easily acquired 10mm practice ammo from Georgia Arms: 1000rd case of 10mm/180gn FMJ. Cost = $180. That's 18-cents per rd/$9 per 50rds.
"I usually shoot 150 rounds at a setting ..."
Great. Doing the same, I've just shot up $27 worth of 10mm ammo.
"...I've burned about $25.00 in ammo, targets and range fees. Once a week of this is $100.00 a month."
Well, I pretty much make my own targets or occasionally buy what I need super cheap in volume at gunshows. But let's stick with ammo costs alone. A weekly outings that consumes $27 in 10mm ammo each time is $108 per month in practice ammo cost. Even factoring-in for range fees and the use of gold plated targets, you're still nowhere near "$200 a month."
"Shoot what you can afford to practice with."
No argument there. And if you know where to look, you can find competitively-priced 10mm practice ammo that's no harder on your wallet - and in some cases easier on it - than .40S&W, .357Sig or .45acp from the Big Three.
Sure, 9mm can be had even cheaper for practice, which is why there's no downside to owning one for that purpose.
I seriously doubt that you're going to get broken ribs or punctured lungs by shooting someone wearing a vest with a .45.
The best vests these days will stop a rifle bullet without even making the wearer miss a step. Even the lowest threat level stops a .45. Most vests in use these days will handily stop a .45 and should allow the wearer to keep functioning normally.
If you want to use a pistol to hurt someone wearing a typical vest you're going to have to get near the top end of the power/velocity spectrum. 10mm, any of the true magnums, or the 7.62x25 come to mind.
Min
Member
What JohnKSa said. Besides, even if they suffer broken ribs, the adrenalin pumping through their body will still allow them to try and take you out.
Haven't ever needed a CCW, so my caliber selection criteria for them is more based on the guns I like and like to shoot plus a bunch of otherwise irrelevant factors.
Right now, my caliber choice is 9mm, my CCW choices are DAO selfstuffers, and my first shot is a head shot. Subject to change, just like my mind....
Right now, my caliber choice is 9mm, my CCW choices are DAO selfstuffers, and my first shot is a head shot. Subject to change, just like my mind....
Nightcrawler
Member
Couple things I would preferred cleared up.
Shot placement is, of course, important. But if it's the only thing, why aren't you all carrying 9x19mms? Why anybody with .357s and .45 +Ps? Especially the .40 shooters. The guns that are available in .40 are almost always available in 9mm, and the 9mms offer cheaper ammo, less recoil, and higher capacity. If 9mm is really just as good why doesn't everyone use a 9mm as a carry gun, and save the revolvers and 1911s for range shooting?
Another question. "Failure to stop drills"....if you CAN shoot them in the head, why not just do that first? Isn't it possible that if, after your first shot or two, the badguy might still be approaching because you missed? It's possible, you know. Given that possibility, is it really wise to make your next move to aim for a smaller, harder to hit target?
Shot placement is, of course, important. But if it's the only thing, why aren't you all carrying 9x19mms? Why anybody with .357s and .45 +Ps? Especially the .40 shooters. The guns that are available in .40 are almost always available in 9mm, and the 9mms offer cheaper ammo, less recoil, and higher capacity. If 9mm is really just as good why doesn't everyone use a 9mm as a carry gun, and save the revolvers and 1911s for range shooting?
Another question. "Failure to stop drills"....if you CAN shoot them in the head, why not just do that first? Isn't it possible that if, after your first shot or two, the badguy might still be approaching because you missed? It's possible, you know. Given that possibility, is it really wise to make your next move to aim for a smaller, harder to hit target?
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