IMI- Tavor bullpup assault rifle

[JimJD]

So, this is what's replacing the UZI and possibly other firearms in Israel...

IMI- Tavor info

" Israel Military Industries is launching the new family of the TAVOR assault rifles. The weapon is offered in four configurations:
The basic design - the T.A.R-21 Tavor Assault Rifle.
A sharp-shooting configuration is offered as a squad weapon.
For commando, airborne, paratroopers and special rescue units, as well as tank crews, a short Tavor assault rifle is offered.
Micro T.A.R is specially configured for security forces and special missions.
Tavor uses the proven, compact Bull pup design, which was optimized to best match the ergonomics and mission requirements of the modern warrior, providing natural handling, intuitive aiming from all firing positions and improved hit accuracy. Accuracy and target acquisition is enhanced, by the use of accurate aiming, through the use of an integral reflex optical reflective sight, which projects the aiming point on the center of the sight. Tavor has an attachment for additional sighting devices, such as a 3rd generation night vision sight, which can be installed with no zeroing. Tavor is gas operated, using rotating bolt action. All types use standard NATO 5.56mm ammunition (M855/SS109), accommodate a 30 round magazine and sustain a rate of fire of 750 - 900 rounds per minute"

Interesting, but where are the iron sights?
I think I can see a blade front on one version, maybe the rear is hidden under the optics?

 

[Caseless]

The Tavor is a great looking and ergonomically designed rifle. But I have the feeling that all these new bullpup designs from different countries except the FN F2000 are missing the mark. They are not ambidextrous. Therefore not practical in the constantly changing conditions of a firefight.

 

[JimJD]

If it helps, IMI lists a "Left hand kit (bolt)" in their optional accessories list.

 

[keederdag]

maybe I'm kinda wierd, but the fact that it has no trigger guard bothers me.

 

[Nightcrawler]

I think people overestimate the times you shoot from your week hand in an actual military squad level firefight (compared to what you do in one of those urban rifle classes). When you're shaken up and in a fight, the last thing you want to do, if it can be at ALL avoided, is fire your weapon from your week hand and non-dominant eye.

Besides, even the US has has non-abmbidextrious weapons before. The M60 machine gun can't easily be used by a lefty, do to the feed plate that blocks the left side of the grip. And let's not mention the bolt action rifles in the days of old.

 

[Onslaught]

I think people overestimate the times you shoot from your week hand in an actual military squad level firefight

But us lefties (7 per 1000 isn't it?) shoot from the left side all the time.

Besides, even the US has has non-abmbidextrious weapons before. The M60 machine gun can't easily be used by a lefty, do to the feed plate that blocks the left side of the grip. And let's not mention the bolt action rifles in the days of old.

I don't know about the M60, but I'd assume they just didn't issue it to southpaws. As for bolt guns of the old days... well 1) you can use a right handed bolt action on the left side whereas the bullpup would eject brass directly into your face, and 2) back in the "old days" they also issued one "BDU" which served as dress and battle gear, hot or cold, rain or shine, and all around $ucked, and they had steel pot helmets, backpacks that wrapped everything up like a papoose... need I go on

Any bullpup design that doesn't consider left handed shooters or even the weak hand position is a poor design. It's not just "inconvenient" like the AR15 or a bolt gun where you can work around it... all you can do with the SA80 L85 A1 is learn to shoot right handed.

 

[Nightcrawler]

But us lefties (7 per 1000 isn't it?) shoot from the left side all the time.

I'm left handed.

The TAVOR, like almost every production bullpup, has a swappable bolt so left handed shooters can use it.

The M60...I don't know, I had to train on one, and had to fire it right handed. They don't issue 'em much anymore anyways.

The big beef people seem to have with bullpups is that they assume the soldier fires weak handed all the time. Maybe you swap shoulders a lot in one of the various rifle schools you can attend, but I'll bet you don't do it too much in Infantry School. (Anybody with an EIB care to comment? I might be wrong.)

And how many times to SWAT-cops switch shoulders with their MP5s? I'm genuinely curious on this one. Is it a common thing, that you swap shoulders to go around a corner and such? what do they do if their weapon has a sling on it (they type where if you let go of the weapon it just hangs on your chest)?

One question. Take a look at the following pictures of Bullpup rifles that are currently in production. Pictures courtesy of World.Guns.Ru.

Norinco QBZ-95 5.8x42mm

Steyr AUG 5.56x45mm

GIAT FAMAS G2 (latest model) 5.56x45mm

IMI TAR-21 "Tavor" 5.56x45mm

Singapore Technologies Kinetics SAR-21 5.56x45mm

Vektor CR-21 5.56x45mm

Valmet M82 5.56x45mm

Enfield/HK L85A2 5.56x45mm

Notice that a disproportionate number of them have the handguard that wraps the pistol grip instead of a trigger loop. Is there any reason for this? The Steyr AUG started it, is it beneficial in some way? Shooting with heavy gloves, maybe? (A larger trigger loop might be a simpler solution). Heck, on the FAMAS, it was added; the original versions didn't have it!

 

[Nightcrawler]

Oh, just so it's known, I'd sell a kidney if I could get a semiautomatic .308 bullpup that was lefty friendly. Especially if it looked as cool as the FAMAS.

 

[Black Snowman]

Notice that a disproportionate number of them have the handguard that wraps the pistol grip instead of a trigger loop. Is there any reason for this? The Steyr AUG started it, is it beneficial in some way? Shooting with heavy gloves, maybe? (A larger trigger loop might be a simpler solution). Heck, on the FAMAS, it was added; the original versions didn't have it!

From what little I've researched these it seams the large guard rather than a trigger guard was used for two reasons, clearance for gloves, or even mittens, plus it gives a place for a 2nd handhold for akward firing positions. Notice the swell in the center of the Travor's? I bet that's there to fill a gripping hand better. Also notice that most of them are canted at the same angle.

PS: I though lefties were closer to 30% of the population?

 

[Onslaught]

I'm left handed.

PS: I though lefties were closer to 30% of the population?

Taken from Lefthanders FAQ:

What percentage of the population is left handed?

There have been many different numbers put forth, with the most
common numbers we have seen being in the area of 13 percent. However,
we have seen numbers as high as 30 percent, when you allow a
very loose definition of left-handedness.

I believe I added an extra zero... to the stats I heard... 7 out of 100, not 1000.

Oh, just so it's known, I'd sell a kidney if I could get a semiautomatic .308 bullpup that was lefty friendly. Especially if it looked as cool as the FAMAS.

Absolutely... If DSA does make the AUG, and it converts to left-handed use, and it's <$1000, I will own one.

That's the first time I've ever seen a Singapore Technologies Kinetics SAR-21... And it is now by far the "coolest" looking bullpup I have ever seen.

 

[Black Snowman]

My vote for coolest looking bullpup still falls firmly with the Barret Mod 82. It's just so big many people don't realise it's a bullpup design

 

[cdbeaver]

My information is that one in seven is left-handed. That figures out to about 16 per cent of the population, male and female.

I'm a lefty looking for a southpaw-friendly firearm.

 

[Onslaught]

I'm a lefty looking for a southpaw-friendly firearm.

If you're interested in being more specific about types of firearms, and would like some input from a fellow lefty with a long spanning interest in things that go "boom", I'd be glad to share my experiences with pistols, rifles, and/or shotguns.

PM would probably be the way to go so we don't hijack JimJD's thread entirely.

 

[Gabe]

Black Snowman wrote:

PS: I though lefties were closer to 30% of the population?

It's also societally determined. In East Asia lefties make up a much smaller percentage of the population than the US. In Japan its almost unheard of.

 

[Correia]

I got to play with the 2 Barrett Tavors. They did have very rudimentary flip up iron sights for emergency use. Trigger was better than expected. Rear heavy, but pointed very quickly. Did not get to shoot it however.

I really liked how they felt. I wouldn't mind having one.

 

[Nightcrawler]

ICK. This is the "civvie" Tavor.

Why they didn't make it look like the regular TAR-21 is beyond me.

 

[JimJD]

I was just over at the site you linked the pic from Nightcrawler.
Some interesting info over there.
So the civilian version is modeled after the "Tavor-2", Hmmm...
I don't think it looks that bad, kind of like the fact it has a trigger guard.
But, I like the appearance of the other versions too.
It still needs some iron sights!
...and a muzzle brake.

 

[BadWolf]

I agree about the FN F2000.

I think it is the coolest and most ergonomic bullpup design and most elegant as they dealt with the right and left hand issue by making the brass fall out an opening near the front.

 

[Correia]

Jim, there are little plastic flip up sights on that gun.

 

[JimJD]

Jim, there are little plastic flip up sights on that gun.

On all versions or just one?
Did it seem like it was a "quality" part?

 

[tire iron]

I concur 100% that the ANY rifle SHOULD be 'left/right' friendly.

The facts are that the world is composed of 50% right side cover and 50% left side cover. That means that you have a 50/50 chance of utilizing/shooting from 'left' side cover (or "weak" side cover).

Now if you choose to expose more of your body to incoming fire than is necessary by using the rifle 'right handed' around left side cover - do so - but understand you just exposed WAY more 'bullet absorbing material' than I am willing to expose.

One of the main reasons for using cover is to MAXIMIZE the damage to your opponent/s while MINIMIZING the damage to yourself. That means transitioning to whichever shoulder helps meet that goal - all dependant upon the cover available.

The Israeli's "missed the boat" on this one - the only bullpup that 'got it right' is the FN2000. It just shows that the gap from the designer to the end user is too wide.

Whether or not the military teaches weak side shooting is immaterial. They are training to the lowest common denominator. In other words - they are not the last and only word on what is 'a better way' to do things.

This technique (bi-lateral or 'ambi' shootingz) IS taught and used by some of the high-speed mil and civilian "SWAT" units though. The 'high-speed' shooters of USMC Force Recon have ambi selector/safeties and ambi-Mag catches on their issued M4A1's - turning them in mighty fine 'ambidextrous' carbines. Other units/PD's have done the same - for a good reason. It makes sense.

In fact - all it really takes to make a believer out of anyone is some good 'force on force' training with either simunitions or even paintball/airsoft. Pain can be a good teacher.

Whether or not you will want to do this in a firefight is strictly a training issue. If you don't train to do it - you will not do it. If you train to do it until it is 'second nature' - then you will do it. As the oft quote saying stipulates - train how you fight and fight how you train.

He who trains to utilize both shoulders/hands will have a SERIOUS 'leg up' on his adversary who has not trained that way - as his adversary can now only effectively utilize 50% of the cover available to him.

So the choice is yours - do you want to be able to utilize only 50% of the cover available - or 100% of it??

cheers

tire iron

 

[Correia]

Jim, I've only handled that one version. (the Barrett version). They were kind of cheesy. I got the impression that they were strictly for emergency use only and the gun was meant to use an ACOG or red dot.

 

[Gabe]

Bullpups can be shot from the weakside, its just that its a little more awkward. Armies don't train to shoot from the weakside with conventional rifles either. People under stress don't like to resort to unfamiliar stunts.

To shoot from the shoulder, turn the bullpup 90 degrees so the ejection port points straight down, like a left handed gangsta grip. Not very accurate but weak hand shoting never is, and this is perfectly acceptable for CQB range.

 

[tire iron]

Gabe,

I agree it can be done - but then one has 12" of rifle hanging out in "no man's land" - with a one's elbow/arm out there with it. It is 'un-usually uncomfortable' to shoot a bullpup 'gangsta' style and keep one's elbow 'down' - to prevent one's elbow from being a bullet sponge - but the rifle itself then becomes a 'target' indicator as it precedes him by 12" or so around cover.

Again - I agree it can be done - but wouldn't it be great if all he had to do was switch shoulders - without any wierd 'gansta' style mounting solutions??

That is what I mean when I posted that "those that design are too far removed from those that USE the tools".

cheers

tire iron

 

[Correia]

Tire, I wouldn't say that those who design are to far removed from those that use the tools. The bullpup concept caught on about the same time as infantry really started riding around in armored fighting vehicles. Shorter meant that you could get in and out of your vehicle faster with out hanging up the whole squad in the doorway. See all of the complaints from Iraq from the infantry guys who were carrying around M16s instead of M4s.

Everything has trade offs. The M4 is nice and short but gives up 8 inches of barrel to a comparably sized bullpup. Where I honestly think bullpups would shine are as DMRs or as suppressed weapons. Both of which the length benefit would offset the lack of left handed shooting. That is why the world needs a good .308 bullpup.