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IMR rifle powders... old vs new (Enduron)

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Charlie98, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I don't shoot gobs of rifle, but I do shoot some. I'm a big fan of IMR rifle powders, they have always treated me well, are almost always available, and for reasonable cost (outside of Cabelas... but I digress.) I began to load 6.5CM for a friend of mine, and reached for a can of IMR4350... that just wasn't there, the shelves at the time were stripped bare of any flavor 4350, so I picked up a can of IMR4451, one of the new Enduron line of IMR powders. It certainly produced accurate and reasonable handloads, so I don't think I'm missing anything there.

    Old vs New...

    So, I'm looking at the IMR lineup, for many of their older powders there is a new Enduron powder right next to it within the same relative burn range. I understand the new technology of the E powders... supposedly more temp stable, has a copper fouling reducer, and (maybe) more economical. Who here has made the switch to the new IMR powders, and left the old IMR version behind? The fastest E powder, 4166, would be a relative replacement to IMR4064 (and maybe 4320) which I don't use just a whole lot of, and is the slowest rifle powder I use, but I'm wondering if they continue to introduce the E powders for the faster standard rifle powders like IMRs 4895 and 3031 if it might be better in the long run to just switch to it and begin the process of rebuilding data for them.

    As far as pistol powders, I've always been an Alliant guy, and just the world's biggest fan of Unique... but I wonder, as Alliant introduces new powders... and everyone is saying BE-86 is the 'new Unique' although I've not found it to be that... that they would begin to phase out the older powders in lieu of the newer ones. I wonder the same thing about rifle powders, and particularly IMR powders. I don't wake up at night in a cold sweat thinking about no more IMR3031, but it does have me thinking about it over my morning coffee...
     
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  2. Skeptic13

    Skeptic13 Member

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    It would seem to me that a lot of these decisions by the powder makers will be market driven. A lot of reloaders are very loyal to certain powders and have been for many years. If the manufacturer has a powder like IMR4064 that has consistently sold well for many years it would seem risky to change to a different formulation. Guess we will have to see where this goes.
     
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  3. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    Some of the newer developed powders are cheaper to produce and also due to the newer requirements to sale in the European market they had to develop a greener /echo friendly type powder as I understand it
     
  4. PecosRiverM

    PecosRiverM Member

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    Do you remember Coke's "The Wave" (New Coke early 80's)?
    Big failure while they changed from sugar to corn syrup.
     
  5. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    http://www.enduronimr.com/?utm_camp...rce=AccurateShooter&utm_content=DailyBulletin

    The enduron line is environment friendly a new formula to meet the new standards to sale in the European market , I have read somewhere that most all of hodgdon powders except varget can no longer be sold in Europe so now
    Hodgdon which markets IMR has the approved enduron environment friendly powder to sale overseas , my question was how will this new powder formula effect shelf life ?
     
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  6. FLIGHT762

    FLIGHT762 Member

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    I had to come up with non lead alternatives for several of my hunting rifles. For my 270 Win. and my 338/06, I decided to try two of the new Enderon powders.

    I used 4166 for a 200 Gr. Nosler E tip load. 2730 FPS and accurate with no pressure sign. For the 270, I used a Barnes 110 TTSX with 4451. I stopped at 3240 FPS with 1 MOA accuracy.

    I have a little IMR 4350 left for some 30/06 loads and after finishing it off, I will not be buying more. I will use 4451 or H-4350. I have been slowly moving from the older IMR powders (4064, 3031, 4895 and 4831) to newer alternatives that have better temperature stability.
     
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  7. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    Well, and that's one of my reasons for axing... IMR powders have been criticized in the past for not being as temp stable as some other powders (like H4895, for example.) I have recorded some significant differences in the very same lot of ammo... fired in 50F (NV winter) and 118F (NV summer.) While my loads are not at maximum, I can see where I might load to near-max for other cartridge/rifle combos.

    JoJo, I'm curious about the 'environmental friendly' part... is it a production issue, or an 'end user' issue (however that could be measured.) I know, as I understand it... W231, for example, is a very expensive powder to produce, vs W244, which I see as the replacement to W231/HP38. The Europeans have some crazy ideas about being environmentally friendly, but I guess that has to be addressed if they wish to market their product there.
     
  8. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    Well... and I was around for that, too, but all they did was bait n' switch... putting the 'New Coke' back into the old can and calling it 'Classic Coke...' and continuing on with corn syrup. :(
     
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  9. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    Environmentally friendly - Enduron technology is environmentally friendly, crafted using raw materials that are not harmful to the environment. this is from IMR what it means I have don't
    know just that it is a new formula to make gun powder . does it mean bio degradable gun powder then it would have a shorten shelf life as the chemicals degrade I would think ?
     
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  10. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    Well, and that's what I mean. The environmental unfriendliness happens after you pull the trigger... so to speak. ;) I don't know... it just sounds fishy, like ethanol-blended fuel, and non-aerosol aerosols...
     
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  11. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    It also has to do with mfg too. I read some where that some of the waste byproducts are hazardous, generates more waste and expensive to dispose of. Part of the reason for newer powders. There is nothing wrong with having more choices. Their doing their best to match some of the most popular powders.
     
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  12. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    That's interesting... Powder Valley linked a page this morning, some benchrest guy did a comparo between 2 Hodgdon powders, and the like IMR Enduron powders for claimed temperature stability. Very interesting....
     
  13. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    While I would think that "environmentally friendly" would refer to the manufacturing process; then why would the Europeans care about powder imported from Canada? I have a hard time imagining more or less "environmentally friendly" smoke.

    I remember the W231 scares, then one of the Hodgdons reassured us they would keep having it made as long as it sold.
    But if W244 was meant as a cheaper cleaner replacement, why didn't they make it the same "burn rate" as W231? They could have called it W231A and motored on.
     
  14. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    They may not have been able to replicate the exact burn rate with the same pressures, using newer tech and components. There is also the issue of cloning a powder... and then the end user using old data for the new powder. Look at all the confusion over old vs new W296 and other powders that are more or less identical...
     
  15. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    But Accurate has called powder from Israel, China, and the USA all "#5."
    Hodgdon has called powder from US surplus, ICI Nobel, and ADI all "H4831."
    Have they revised load data every time they changed suppliers? I no longer have the old literature to look it up.
    I bet St Marks could have gotten closer if they tried.
     
  16. Metal God

    Metal God Member

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    That is my question as well . I know manufacturers of all kinds of products run simulation test seeing how long there products last . IMO those test never represent real world conditions over long periods of time . Need not look any further then automotive paints from the 90's . I see cars from the 50's that have better looking paint then some from the 90's . One of the great things about this hobby is knowing all the components I buy will last the rest of my life and likely a good part of my sons . I like the idea of stocking up and having almost zero worries if it will still be usable in 20, 30+ years . Will I try the new stuff , yep almost certainly but there is no way I'm buying the new stuff to stock up on no matter how well it works . There are plenty of proven long lasting powders available to choose from .
     
  17. FLIGHT762

    FLIGHT762 Member

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    I have containers of each H4831 from the WWII 20MM surplus to 1980's "Made in Scotland", 1990's "Made in Australia" that is dark grey, before the current Greenish ADI "Extreme" powder. I also have reloading data going back to the 1960's. The reloading data hasn't changed much. All of the H4831 types are slower burning than the newer (1973) IMR4831.
     
  18. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    I can not recall the article or video but the "new Tech" has to do with "downstream" waste. Not literally a stream but the by products of production and the actual composition of the powders.
     
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  19. hdwhit

    hdwhit Member

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    Actually, it was a marketing triumph. People clamored for a return to the "old" Coke, but when Coke was returned to the market, it had the same corn syrup that everyone had protested about months before.

    Rather than being a "failure", the introduction of "New Coke" followed by the retreat to a supposed classic "Coke" was one of the biggest marketing coups in history.

    The fact there are people, like yourself, still thinking what they are drinking is not the reformulated Coke is more than adequate evidence of that.
     
  20. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I remember the controversy... was the failure of the New Coke actually planned? I say no. They pumped enough effort into the release of NC to actually warrant it as an effort to market a new item, the return to Classic Coke was damage control... brilliantly done, but I don't believe it was planned initially. I do believe the whole effort was to reduce costs by switching to HFCS... whether it worked with NC or, then, CC... either way, it wasn't, and isn't, the Coke of old. You want real Coke, you have to buy the stuff from Mexico, made with real sugar. Go figure.
     
  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    My brother just retired from "Coke USA" after 30+ years. One of his jobs was quality control in places all over the US. They use a number of different sweeteners these days. Most are artificial. Not to mention the water differences all over the country.

    The newer powders are supposed to produce less waste, or maybe "better" waste, dunno, but it is here to stay. Everything is getting "greener" and that isn't a bad thing by its self. We just need to adapt, as change is the only constant in the universe.

    And with different manufacturing techniques maybe they can't reproduce some older powders exactly, but again, I don't know.
     
  22. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    Just MHO, but very few things new and improved for the sake of being ‘green’ rarely turn out for the better. That may be my cynicism poking out. A few of you have mentioned long-term deterioration, that was something I hadn’t thought of.
     
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