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In Line Muzzle loaders?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Vairochana, Aug 27, 2006.

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  1. Vairochana

    Vairochana Member

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    Gday- I have recently entered the world of BP muzzle loaders.
    Something I have come across are the inline muzzle loaders-> how are these different to a modern cartridge rifle (once loaded) and why are there special hunting seasons for them?

    Cheers
     
  2. oneshooter

    oneshooter Member

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    begin rant/personal opinion/ The only thing that the inline has in commen with traditional muzle loaders is that they load from the front, they are an abomination and should be banned from all special seasons/ end rant

    If you want to hunt the way of your forefathers go with a sidlock, cap or flint, with patched round ball. There are a lot of reasonably priced rifles, in kit or finished, Hawkin and Longrifle, that will shoot well. The inline rifles were built for people that want to hunt the muzzlegun season with a "high power rifle", and are pushed by the builders as a "magnum". A patched round ball, backed by a good powder charge, has and will continue to kill game reliably out to 100yds. The secret is to be a good enough hunter to get within this range limitation. That is hunting, and not just shooting!

    There is a very good Black powder forum on this board. A lot if info available, and some frendly folks to help.

    Oneshooter
    Livin in Texas
     
  3. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    Seems when ever someone mentions in-lines, ill informed biasis's surface from the traditionalist ranks. The in-line ignition design has been around since the 1600's, it wasn't until Tony Knight (Knight Rifles) revived it in the mid 1980's did it become what it is today.

    Knight advanced the idea of a removeable breech plug so the shooter could clean the rifle like an ordinary cartridge gun. He also improved the rifles by using adjustableTimmney triggers, modern style stocks & safeties, and pre-drilled for scope mounts. The first ones were introduced in 1985 (hence Knight's MK-85)....since that time Knight and other manufacturers have improved ignition systems with a variety of existing centerfire primers.

    Nothing wrong with the traditional flintlocks and percussion rifles, they all load from the muzzle just like an in-line.

    To answer your question about the differences between blackpowder and cartidge rifles....ballistics of BP are similar to that of straight walled pistol rounds. They do not have the range or speed of a centerfire rifle. The reason they have special seasons varies from state to state. In some states these are viewed as primitive firearms, to use them in centerfire hunting seasons is considered by some to be a handicap. Other states do not offer centerfire rifle hunting seasons, the ballistics make them more suitable for heavy populated flat areas. Blackpowder and shotgun ballistics would fit these areas better.

    Have three Knight's, very happy with all of them. I bought them because they solved all the short comings I didn't care for in the traditional offerings.

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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2006
  4. gezzer

    gezzer Member

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    They are still a muzzleloader.

    Try sticking one of those brass suppositories in them and they will not work.

    Powder patch ball still works on them even when using pellets and sabots, if you think it doesn't reverse it.

    I am a flintlock shooter. The last 14 head of big game was with one. I see no advantage to using an inline and do not care if one uses one or not they will still be muzzleloader hunting.
     
  5. stevelyn

    stevelyn Member

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    I'm a sidelock shooter (Lyman .54 GPR) myself because that's what I prefer MY muzzleloader to be.

    There is nothing wrong with using an inline if that's what you desire.

    The inline vs. traditional arguement is a red herring and completely without merit just like the traditional/compound/crossbow arguement is in archery/bowhunting.

    Or the EBR/AK vs. traditional sporting rifles.

    Just a bunch of elitist jackasses hastening their demise by division from within while the antis stand on the sidelines and cheer us on.:fire: :cuss:
     
  6. B.D. Turner

    B.D. Turner Member

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    I have just gotten into inline muzzleloaders and like them very much. I have owned several traditional muzzleloaders both caplock and flintlock. The 209 primed inline is much more like a modern rifle than any of the others. The accuracy is on par with or better than some centerfire rifles.
    If someone does not like inlines that is up to them but don't put them down because the Revolutionary war was not fought with them. Cave men used rocks an sticks to hunt so how far back are we going to carry this thing???
     
  7. wanderinwalker

    wanderinwalker Member

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    My modern, in-line muzzleloader has precisely ZERO (0) advantage over a traditional arm, IMO.

    My rifle happens to be a T/C Encore, the new Prohunter model. But no matter how advanced the design, or how many high-tech materials and methods are used in it's manufacture, it STILL loads from the front. And blackpowder ballistics are blackpowder ballistics. You can only get so much performance out of charcoal! ;) My rifle happens to shoot great with real GOEX FFg, thank you very much.

    The clincher for me is that the Encore fits me and feels better than any of the old-style sidehammers (and I've fired a few and own one, albeit a cheap one). If a Hawken was as comfortable to me, I probably would have bought it instead.

    I will never look down on anybody shooting an inline, nor will I consider it a huge advantage over a more traditional system. And those 150gr loads the manufacturers tout? I'll pass thank you. 100-110gr of loose Pyrodex RS or GOEX 2f is all I need.

    Good luck and good shooting, no matter what your preference is!
     
  8. CTD99

    CTD99 Member

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    I am always amazed at the traditional ML guys trying to seperate the modern inline ML guys. To me, this type of division amoung people in the same sport is detrimental to the entire sport, and hunting in general.

    The modern muzzel loader has evolved from the traditional ones and should be accepted as such without the infighting. Dividing us into two groups only weakens us both. "Divide & conquer" is a predictable tactic of the "anit-hunting" groups and we should guard against it. As an example they may try to outlaw percusion caps during muzzel loading season when / if they hear it is an advantage to the hunter.

    If you want to dress up in buckskins and use flint locks knock yourself out. Get out there and enjoy yourself, get into your sport. Just don't look at the other guy and say he is doing it wrong. It degrades us both.

    Now, where did I put those wax impregnated patches? :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2006
  9. Vairochana

    Vairochana Member

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    No Worries

    So what you are saying is that if technology had progressed with the exception of use/invention of the cartridge the inline muzzle loader would be the state of the art today.
     
  10. Duncaninfrance

    Duncaninfrance Member

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    Rembrandt

    NICE - I like it, very smart.

    For those who seek traditional arms just remember that the flintlock / percussion weapons of yesteryear are only modern developments of matchlocks and they of previous arms and so on and so on.

    If mankind had not started out trying to improve a rock we would still be living in caves!

    I would be more than happy to own one and shoot it.
    Duncan
     
  11. TooTaxed

    TooTaxed Member

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    I really don't know...I'm quite happy with my .50 Sile Hawkens, which has harvested several one-shot killed deer, and is easy to load and fire...and provides me a lot of fun at the range. Built it from a kit in the early '80's.

    I also own a Traditions .50 in-line...won it as a door prize about ten years ago. Gonna have to dig it out and try it out one of these days...have never fired it.;)

    I suppose the Hawkins just looks prettier to me than the in-line, which just looks like another one of my many cartridge rifles, but doesn't have the range or speed of any of them. As the ballistics are the same, why not go for pretty? After all, muzzle-loading shooting is for fun, not utility.:p
     
  12. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    I have a T/C Omega I bought a few years ago. It doesn't really fit me all that well, and the standard plastic sights are an Abomination Unto Ed... I'd be much happier with the little brass sights usually found on "traditional" BP rifles. Or maybe that was just me... I'm used to partridge sights... T/C is "line up the dots and the front sight will be down in a valley formed by the rear sight" which bugs me.... I simply couldn't retrain myself to ignore the "sights" (top edge) and just line the dots up... if I concentrated it would shoot at "three dot point of aim".. but if I just mounted and fired it the bullet would be high by a foot or more. Horrible design. OTOH I love the laminated stock and the rifle itself (barring a few design flaws) is great.

    I'd done a fair amount of C&B revolver shooting when I got the T/C, so I wasn't new to BP... but I was new to BP rifles. I've since fired a traditional (a Hawkens I think it was)... my next BP will be more traditional... I'm still kicking around thoughts on which type.... maybe a double. ;)

    I didn't buy a BP rifle to get any hunting advantage...I've never hunted with it at all actually. I bought it as a target practice toy. It kicks out a nice cloud of smoke, is relaxing to shoot, and it hits a target pretty good with the peep sight I put on it. I've been considering hunting with it... maybe later this year or next I'll go stalk pigs with it (again, no season advantage to using it... pigs are year round with whatever you are packing)... but if not I'll still enjoy having it. Just as I'll enjoy having the traditional BP when I get it.

    The main difference I see is the twist. IIRC, most traditionals are 1:48 or the like. Inlines are set up for sabots and spin 1:28 or thereabouts. But there are traditionals with the faster twist. Other than whatever effect that has, both will fire the same projectile with the same speed and accuracy. You can't even say the sights are an advantage... :evil:
     
  13. frosty

    frosty Member

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    Modern Muzzleloaders

    I have been building traditional muzzleloaders for aruond 28 years, or so. I am currently building a 75 caliber Germanic flintlock rifle, but I own an in-line. If a man wants to hunt a state like PA or West VA, whats wrong with using an in-line rifle, where you might be offered a 150 -200yd shot? I only have x amount of time to hunt, so I make every shot count, like I always have. There's nothing like a December flintlock hunt, and I've hung with the best of'em. Modern muzzleloaders will always have a place in our sport.
     
  14. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Rembrant, I applaud you! I am strictly a sidelock traditionalist and won't voice my opinions or reasons , cause I have found that they are mine...LoL!
    But I must say your answers and dates in history are correct. Although the In-lines of today aren't the same as they were invented as.
    Your rifle is beautiful and that's the first time I ever said that about any in-line. Good job, my hat's off to you.

    SG
     
  15. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Inlines Vs Cartridge arms.

    Smokeless powder will always have a decided adge in power over BP. Just the nature of the beast. Even the newest, fandangled, hyped up inline is good for no more than 150-200 yards, and that's a stretch. BP burns slowly compared to smokeless, that's why pressures are so much lower. Less pressure equals less velocity.

    Now here's the catch to modern inlines. They're all touted as being able to handle 150gr of powder behing a sabot and bullet. Fine, but with slow burning powder you're burning about the last 50gr in the air in front of you. You get more pressure with no more velocity payoff. BP is what it is, and it is fun. Marketing, however, cannot change balistics.

    If you want one, get it. You'll most likely come to enjoy it. Just doin't expect it to perform at extended ranges just because it resembles a cartridge rifle.
     
  16. Manyirons

    Manyirons member

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    Jus GOTTA stir this pot! Whatcha talkin there smokeless advantage? Ya means ifin ya caint hunt an get close? :)
     
  17. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    A comment was made asking what was wrong with using a modern (in-line) gun that will reach out to 150-200 yards? Lest we forget, the minie ball gun of the Civil War can reach out to over double that distance. Don't overlook a Civil War repro if you're into hunting.
     
  18. wanderinwalker

    wanderinwalker Member

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    I think the ballistics-aspect gets over-hyped on the inlines, honestly.

    Sure, you CAN pour 150gr of powder (or pelletized equivalent) into them. Sure, it is perfectly possible to drive a 300 gr saboted slug at over 2000fps with this setup. Congratulations! We've reached magnum revolver cartridge in a rifle ballistics with a huge increase in noise and recoil.

    I will hunt with and enjoy shooting my Encore inline. But I will always remember what it is: A slow loading, smoky equal to my .44 Magnum Marlin lever gun. That is fine with me though; I like the .44 and I definitely like the muzzleloader.

    Now if only I could save enough money for a nice Hawken's, we'd be in business! :cool:
     
  19. parmamoon

    parmamoon Member

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  20. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Hitting and killing.

    Talking about hunting ranges, I'd be hard pressed to take a 200 plus yard shot with a muzzleloader. Assuming I had confidence in good shot placement, the performance of a roundball, minnie ball or even a modern bullet from a sabot would be unreliable at those velocities. I'd rather buy burger than lose a cripple. Poking holes is fun and can be done at ranges far beyond those that limit ethical hunting. I just keep my hole punching on paper, not fur.

    Heck, I don't even go more than 250-300 with a scoped .308 Win. due to my own ability (or lack) to place a bullet in the boiler room with absolute certainty.
     
  21. BP Hunter

    BP Hunter Member

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    I've always enjoyed in-line muzzleloading. My Traditions .50 cal can easily group 2" at 100 yards with a scope. My favorite is my Savage 10ML smokeless. I best i did with it was a one shot kill of a coyote at 176 yards - measured with a lazer finder.
     
  22. oneshooter

    oneshooter Member

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    Looks like I'm outnumbered!

    I still don't like them stainless barrel, plastic stocked, scoped, 209 primed, plastic sabot, JHP, pill loading..............THINGS!


    Oneshooter
    Livin in Texas
     
  23. Manyirons

    Manyirons member

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    Some ol dead guy said somthin bout HANGIN TOGETHER ER SEPERATE.

    Ya dont gotta have a inline Oneshooter, but we's all onna same team. Jus cause tha guys usin a carbon er aluminum bat dont mean he aint playin baseball.

    Ah likes rag chewin myself an hawkins jus fine, but i aint cryin ifin an inline stops at my door!


    GOSH! a thousand posts!
     
  24. Duncaninfrance

    Duncaninfrance Member

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    GOSH! a thousand posts!
    You'r not working hard enough Thom!!!!
    Duncan
     
  25. Manyirons

    Manyirons member

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    Keeper quiet! Tha MANN already sayin ifin i gots free time ta post i gots time ta work! :)
     
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