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Indiana Lifetime bill on it's way to Gov.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by txgho1911, Mar 9, 2006.

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  1. txgho1911

    txgho1911 Member

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    Copied email from Jim T.

     
  2. bruss01

    bruss01 Member

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    Very interesting. I went looking for the TEXT OF THE BILL THAT ACTUALLY PASSED. I didn't see it on the website listed... can you please post the copy of what will actually be on the Governor's desk? That would be great.
     
  3. scout26

    scout26 Member

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    Boy, if that don't earn you an F- from the Brady's, nothing will !!!!


    Hmmm, maybe I could talk Mrs Scout into moving to Indiana so that she can be closer to her Mother-in-Law. :rolleyes:
     
  4. cordex

    cordex Member

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  5. VorpalSpork

    VorpalSpork Member

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    It would be better not to need a license at all.
     
  6. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I doubt I've ever seen government give up free money. Amazing!
     
  7. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Gee, what a surprise! The NRA ignored what we are doing here. Shocking. Well, it's our own fault for not having as many electoral votes as Florida or Texas where carrying guns was invented.:rolleyes: :D

    I guess we poor dumb unenlightened rubes will have to drive on without the NRA. Oh, well, they'll catch up to us someday.:D

    As an aside, AAAAHHHH! Quit calling it the "Castle Doctrine"! You guys are driving me batty.

    1. "Castle Doctrine" refers to an exception to the duty to retreat in which one does not need to retreat if in one's residence.

    2. Indiana does not have a duty to retreat.

    3. Indiana eliminated the duty to retreat in 1865 in a Supreme Court decision. Note this was just before Florida (See Kirk's Second Law of the Internet) passed a statute amending their use of force to eliminate the duty to retreat in 2005.

    4. The current attempt to codify the lack of Indiana's duty of retreat is feckless and being pushed by the NRA who has absolutely no idea what is going on in Indiana.

    5. The duty to retreat is a minority position among the states.
     
  8. ARperson

    ARperson Member

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    I disagree with the idea that castle doctrine is an exception to the duty to retreat mindset. :scrutiny: As I see it, castle doctrine is at the opposite end of the spectrum, but not merely limited to an "exception" of the duty to retreat.

    However, legally, I realize that my own version of common sense and logic have no place. :cool:
     
  9. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    AR, many moons ago in the Motherland, England, the general rule was that one had a duty to retreat if one was able to before you could apply deadly force. A recognize exception to the duty to retreat was a man's domicile. This principle is usually traced back to Coke but the same legal principle (retreat, unless in your crib) can be found in Wroman law.

    The Amuricins, upon Independence, adopted the same legal principles. Over the years, many states have abandoned the duty to retreat requirement (Indiana did during the Civil War) as it became known that if one turns and runs one subjects himself to greater danger (as in the Civil War where the real killing did not start until one side broke and ran).

    However, even in states that maintained a duty to retreat, e.g. Florida, the "Castle Doctrine" was an exception to the duty to retreat before deadly force could be applied. Recently our dear friends in the media have contorted the "Castle Doctrine" to equating to the lack of a duty to retreat.

    The "Castle Doctrine" applies to an exception to a general duty to retreat. Modifying a state's law to abolish any duty to retreat is NOT the "Castle Doctrine".

    Anywho, just a pet peeve of mine. Sort of like guys who keep saying "Class 3 weapons" (an aside: AAAAHHH!) instead of Title II, it is incorrect, but I know what they mean.:)
     
  10. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    And since I have not said it, and I certainly should, GOOD JOB, SECOND AMENDMENT, PATRIOTS. You people are a wonder to our cause.
     
  11. abc

    abc Member

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    I think you are overlooking the damage done by this bill.

    1) The minimum price to exercise your rights(the 4 year unlimited license) is now $40, up from $25. The duplicate license fee has been raised to $20 from $5, boy that pink paper has gotten costly. So here we are forced to hand over more money for what we already had, and funds collected beyond 1.1mil per annum can pay for ephedrine and pseudoephedrine sales databases as well.

    2) The backround check system has been changed to the federal NICS, which in theory is a non-issue. Given the state of the federal government and the constant issue of records destruction, it makes a lot more sense to have this run by our own state government, which we have a firmer grasp on.

    3) Now we have a burdon of notifying the ISP anytime we experience an "event" that may disqualify ourselves from being a license holder.

    And the issue that should have everyone calling for veto:
    4) All dealers are required to forward copies of their completed 4473's to the state police. All of the previous language regarding ISP backround check data retention and records retention investigation assurances by the attorney general have been repealed. Thus the ISP is free to catalog your purchases and they'll even get the make, model, and serial number.

    Now I know Jim of the 2nd Amendment Patriots is calling out how the governor can issue an executive order regarding the records retention prior/at/after the bill signing. He's even gone as far as to give some type of justification that we live in a "tracked" society so we should just expect this, and it was so laborous to get this lifetime bill passed. Honestly, I'm sick of the harping on the lifetime license. Clearly there are municipalities or CLEOs that attempt to make it inconvenient when applying for licenses, but this law has not fixed that. I've yet to hear that this has prevented someone from getting a license, or heard that it would have been too laborous to add language to the existing law to crack the whip on these obstructions. Of course all we are hearing is about how great this lifetime license is without any discussion of the fiscal burden to participate in the lifetime license, nor the fact that the less fortunate(those more likely to only afford a 4-year) have been sold out, and the ISP has been awarded an information fishing adventure.

    Again nothing to see here, ignore the man behind the curtain. Am I the only not holding my breath to have Daniels unrectumfy this? Unless we have close to 150 people that can't read in Indianapolis and the people "on our side" don't know what information is put on a 4473; this forwarding of the 4473 behavior is intentional. Hooray, we've given up ground; nothing like moving backwards in the name of progress.
     
  12. garrettwc

    garrettwc Member

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    This has been effective in Indiana since 1997. Below is the text of the existing law:

    IC 35-47-2.5-3
    Criminal history information; consent form
    Sec. 3. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, a person purchasing a handgun from a dealer shall consent in writing, on a form to be provided by the superintendent, to have the dealer obtain criminal history information.
    (b) The form shall include, in addition to the information required by section 4 of this chapter, the same information required to be included on the firearms transaction record required by federal regulations administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms of the United States Department of the Treasury. However, the form may not include any information related to the handgun.
    (c) The copies of the forms shall be mailed or delivered to the state police department before the last day of the month following the sale.
    As added by P.L.17-1997, SEC.8.


    All they have done here is to change the wording to "define" the form.
     
  13. abc

    abc Member

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    I believe you are mistaken, let me help you:

    IC 35-47-2.5-3
    (b) The form shall include, in addition to the information required by section 4 of this chapter, the same information required to be included on the firearms transaction record required by federal regulations administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms of the United States Department of the Treasury. However, the form may not include any information related to the handgun.

    Note the, "However, the form may not include any information related to the handgun." (my emphasis added)

    Here is what a 4473 looks like(special attention to section D on page 2): http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/index.htm

    IC 35-47-2.5-3 will now read:
    (a) A person purchasing a handgun from a dealer shall complete and sign Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Form 4473.
    (b) The dealer shall forward a copy of the Form 4473 signed by the purchaser to the state police department before the last day of the month following the sale.

    Further the following sections related to records keeping and destruction have been repealed:

    IC 4-6-3-12
    Compliance inspections into destruction of handgun purchase records
    Sec. 12. (a) Upon receipt of a complaint that records of handgun purchases are not being timely destroyed as required by IC 35-47-2.5-8, the attorney general shall conduct a compliance inspection to substantiate compliance.
    (b) The attorney general shall report the findings of inspections made under this subsection to the governor and to the presiding officer of each house of the general assembly.
    As added by P.L.17-1997, SEC.1.


    IC 35-47-2.5-8
    Maintenance of records by state police department; log of requests
    Sec. 8. (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, the state police department may not maintain records in any form, including a computer data base, longer than thirty (30) days after a dealer's request for a criminal history check concerning a buyer or transferee who is not found to be prohibited from possessing and transporting a firearm under state or federal law.
    (b) A log of requests made to the state police department may be maintained for not more than twelve (12) months, if the log consists only of:
    (1) the name of the purchaser;
    (2) the dealer identification number;
    (3) the unique approval number;
    (4) the transaction date; and
    (5) a record indicating that the fee collected by the dealer under section 11 of this chapter has been transferred to the state police department.
    As added by P.L.17-1997, SEC.8. Amended by P.L.68-1999, SEC.1.



    As enacted by HB1176, starting July 1st, 2006 the Indiana State Police will receive copies of ATF 4473 forms for handgun sales, which contain the make, model, serial number, and caliber of the handgun(s) purchased, and there are no restrictions on the retention or use of this data.
     
  14. garrettwc

    garrettwc Member

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    abc, thank you for pointing out my oversight.

    I now fully appreciate your concern. We are trading simplied administration tasks (license applications) for registration. And we all know what registration leads to. :scrutiny:
     
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