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Indianapolis police officer killed in gunfight with man suspected of killing mother

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by ZeroX, Aug 19, 2004.

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  1. ZeroX

    ZeroX Member

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    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/08/18/national1439EDT0583.DTL

    Indianapolis police officer killed in gunfight with man suspected of killing mother

    Wednesday, August 18, 2004

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    (08-18) 11:39 PDT INDIANAPOLIS (AP) --

    A man suspected of murdering his mother emerged from his house Wednesday firing a rifle at "anything and everything," killing one police officer and wounding four others, authorities said.

    The gunman was killed about two blocks away after an exchange of gunfire with one of the wounded officers, police Lt. Paul Ciesielski said.

    Officers went to the house to investigate reports that a man had killed his mother and was shooting what sounded like a machine gun, Ciesielski said. The first officer to arrive was wounded by 33-year-old Kenneth Anderson before he even got out of his car.

    "The man exited the house and was just shooting at anything and everything that approached him," Ciesielski said.

    In the shootout that followed, Patrolman Timothy Laird, 31, was killed, the Indianapolis Police Department's first line-of-duty shooting death in 16 years.

    Anderson's mother, 66-year-old Grace Anderson, was found dead in the house, police said. The cause of her death was not immediately determined.

    Police Chief Jerry Barker said the department had previous dealings with Anderson, who had a history of mental illness. The mother told officers in January that her son had been at her home and "carrying the handgun all day inside the house and rambling on about everyone coming to get them," according to police records.



    ---

    I'm also watching this on the news right now. One of the wounded officer was apparently the one who took the guy down with a SMG from his trunk while wounded. The suspect was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
     
  2. ZeroX

    ZeroX Member

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    *sigh* One of the station's spent 2-3 minutes talking about the high-powered assault rifle used, the ease of getting one, the AWB and it's upcoming expiration.
     
  3. dance varmint

    dance varmint Member

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    Just saw this on all the local Nitwitness News shows. WRTV ran a poll indicating 65% of the lamebrains surveyed want restrictions on Assault Weapons(tm) in light of this shooting. They referred to the SKS as an "extremely high powered assault rifle". One bit of (possible mis-)information is that this guy was making hits at 150 yards. All the channels interviewed Don of Don's Guns who spoke of the background checks as if they are too lax. Excuse me while I hurl.
     
  4. Night Guy

    Night Guy Member

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    Here's what I posted. Hopefully it shows up on their site. Feel free to add your own responses. You don't need to register to respond in their Feedback section.

    ****************************************************

    Wow! It sounds as if you quoted the Brady Bunch verbatim on that one. Good for you for believing all the propaganda they've shoveled down your throat. Perhaps you should spend some time learning how a firearm works and educating yourself regarding current federal laws before blathering on like a deranged lunatic about a subject you know so little on.

    As has been posted previously, machine guns have been heavily regulated in the United States since 1934. Machine guns are firearms which fire more than one bullet per trigger pull. There is no quick and easy way to legally obtain a true machine gun. The average price for legal machine guns hovers around $10,000 putting them far out of reach for even the most dedicated firearms enthusiast.

    The rifle used in this shooting is NOT much different mechanically than the AR15's collecting dust in IPD's weapons locker. It is NOT a machine gun. There is zero increase in potential lethality, because all firearms are potentially dangerous in criminal hands. The SKS involved has been readily available in this country for ~50 years, often at very reasonable prices. Making it an ideal rifle for lower income persons or those looking for an inexpensive rifle which fires an inexpensive cartridge. What on earth would lead you to believe that removing such a versatile rifle from law abiding hands would lower potential homocide rates? Would you also propose to ban other weapons? What about knives, baseball bats, automobiles, the entire tool aisle at Menards?

    The plain and simple truth is that this tradgedy was the result of a deranged person with blatant medical problems. He should have been hospitalized for his mental problems. Blaming an inanimate object does not help the situation.

    Please do not allow the Indianapolis Star's misleading reporting on this tragic incident to sway your opinion on the sunset of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. That ban by all accounts has done nothing to slow the sale of military patterned rifles. Rifles which bear only a cosmetic resemblence to the M16's and M4's used by our military. The VPC and other gun control advocates are quick to point out that the use of "assault weapons" has gone down as a result of the ban. Even if that were true, Bushmaster has had record sales in the last decade and other new AR15 manufacturers have even gone into business. The truth is that there are more self-loading military patterned rifles in law abiding hands than there were ten years ago. And yet, their use in crime has gone down. Seems to me there is no logical reason to continue a ban that has been so obviously ineffective in preventing crime.


    My sincerest condolences to the fallen officer's family and all of his brothers at IPD. Remember him fondly, honor him and make sure his little girl grows up knowing her daddy died protecting other little girls just like her.

    I apologize for the length of my post. Emotional responses to a subject I'm passionate about tend to make me long-winded.
     
  5. cxm

    cxm Member

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    Manchurian Gun Control?

    I'm once again not at all surprised to see a dramatic upswing in the use of military style weapons (aka "Assault Weapons") being used in crimes... coincidentally at the same time the "Ban" is up for renewal.

    How strange, that when a gun control bill is up for consideration in the Congress or a state, these type of incidents just sort of happen...

    There is just too much coincidnece here... could we have some Brady bunch "Manchurian Candidates" at work here? I absolutely would not put such things past them and their democRAT comrads.

    It is utterly amazing... and it will keep happening as long as the AW bill is under consideration... we need to make the point public....

    FWIW

    Chuck
     
  6. Shootcraps

    Shootcraps Member

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    [Q]The mother told officers in January that her son had been at her home and "carrying the handgun all day inside the house and rambling on about everyone coming to get them," according to police records. [/Q]

    Another case of someone having a break down and nobody takes it seriously. When are people going to learn, that when someone starts talking to Jesus (or something similar) it's time for them to see a doctor.
     
  7. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Shootcraps, they tried that. He was committed for a psych eval in January. Police confiscated his guns, had to give them back after eval cleared him.

    A cop sent an e-mail saying this guy was on the edge. Wonder why that cop did not testify at hearing or did not attempt second civil committment if he know shooter was so unstable?:confused:
     
  8. Shootcraps

    Shootcraps Member

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    That's too bad. Maybe his mother should have done something. A very unfortunate situation.
     
  9. Moonclips

    Moonclips Member

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    This is the kind of thing that gives responsible gun owners a bad name.

    If the guy had a history of mental illness, he shouldn't have been allowed to own guns. He was a menace to his family and to the society at large.
     
  10. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Moon, don't know about other history, but eval done in January cleared him.
     
  11. Col. Mustard

    Col. Mustard Member

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    He wasn't "cleared" according to the Indy media:

     
  12. mainmech48

    mainmech48 Member

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    BOHICA, Hoosiers. Wasn't surprised when they trotted Don Davis out (again) to represent their idea of a "typical" firearms dealer. He's been the go-to boy for the local media for years.

    He has the highest public profile and "name recognition" of any firearms retailer in the area. The fact that that profile epitomizes "sleeze" in the minds of many, if not most, people who recognize the name makes him the perfect tool for their purposes.

    The idea, IMO, is to say "See! You all KNOW that this guy sells guns. You KNOW that he's a bottom feeder of the highest order! If even HE agrees with us that these nasty "assault rifles" should be banned, what sort of nutcase would disagree?

    To add to his 'credibility', they made a point of mentioning that he "voluntarily" stopped selling AK clones in '93 and burned 44 of them as a publicity stunt. He claims that he was "forced" to start selling AKs and SKSes again by public demand. After all, he says: "I don't want to make any money, Folks. I just luuuve to sell guns! Heh, heh, heh."

    Ah! What we'll do for love.
     
  13. cordex

    cordex Member

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    Very sad.

    Glad the other officer was able to put him down.
     
  14. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Ummm, if the eval did not clear him, why did the court not commit him and how did he receive his guns back after the city attorney said there was no reason to hold them?:scrutiny:

    Just because you are "diagnosed" with a mental problem or potential problem is not reason in itself to commit one under the statute.
     
  15. wasrjoe

    wasrjoe Member

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    You can never stop a lone person from commiting a tragedy. That is a simple fact of life. In a nation of about 300,000,000, there is no running from the occasional nutcase.

    Once again hysteria is fueled by an illogical media who have no qualms with being dishonest or misinformed. But, hey, most Americans realize that the media is just as clueless on 99% of the real "issues" as the rest of the world is, right? Right?

    Right?
     
  16. Shootcraps

    Shootcraps Member

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    [Q]This is the kind of thing that gives responsible gun owners a bad name.

    If the guy had a history of mental illness, he shouldn't have been allowed to own guns. He was a menace to his family and to the society at large.[/Q]

    This is what the eval should have shown. If he was a threat, the doctors would have reported this to the judge, who would have ordered him commited.
     
  17. Shootcraps

    Shootcraps Member

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    Doesn't GCA68 state that you can't be mentally incompetent and own guns? But that's even different than being schizophrenic.
     
  18. wasrjoe

    wasrjoe Member

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    Oh no, a single nutcase went through the Systemâ„¢ and harmed people! You would think that the Systemâ„¢ was fallible and run by a bunch of humans or something! Quick, pass more laws! LEGISLATE ME! HURRY! SKY! FALLING! AHHHHHH!
     
  19. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Why not? I've never heard of a lie too despicable for the leftist extremists to tell, and if lies, why not incitement to murder?
     
  20. m39fan

    m39fan Member

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    The articles the Indianapolis Star ran (http://www.indystar.com/articles/0/171577-6940-092.html) made me ticked enough to write to the editor and one of the nitwits that wrote one of the pieces:

    <start e-mail>

    Mr. Strauss,

    I am writing in regards to the following article entitled:

    Gunfire spurred a flurry of 911 calls

    By John Strauss, Tom Spalding and Vic Ryckaert

    In reading the article I was shocked at the amount of catch phrases used by the writers to make the incident seem "scarier". These include phrases like:

    "bullets raked the vehicle", "assault rifle", "roaming the streets with a machine gun", " bullets peppered the vehicle", "blasting it with his rifle", "barrage from Anderson's SKS rifle, similar to a military AK-47", "bullets hammering his car". Although the incident was indefensible, it appears to be used to further a particular bias, political- or world-view. Hardly the kind of objective reporting one would hope for.

    As a former police officer, I take officer safety very seriously. As a law-abiding gun owner, it angers me to see someone use a gun in the commission of such an atrocity. However, I believe that the public has the right to know the facts. Using such alarmist terms such as "assault rifle" cannot be anything but bias, ignorance or sensationalism. None of which reflect well on a professional journalist.

    Assuming that it was ignorance, please allow me to clarify a few items found in the article in question:

    "assault rifle" - The definition of an assault rifle is a select-fire, shoulder-held weapon usually with a carbine length barrel (under 20") and firing an intermediate power cartridge with a high capacity detachable magazine. The Germans first coined the phase in late WWII to describe a new weapon they had developed. The Russians followed after the war with their AK-47. So, keeping in mind the TRUE definition, how many assault weapons were used in the incident? None by the suspect. One possibly used by Ofc. Koe. Many "AR-15's" used by police departments are select-fire weapons. That means that they differ from a true AR-15 (available to civilians) in that they can be made to fire full auto with a flip of the selector lever.

    "Others said somebody was roaming the streets with a machine gun" - As a former officer, I can tell you that 911 calls range from inaccurate to bizarre. Since the facts show that it was NOT a "machine gun" why was this included? What about a caller that may have called in and said Anderson was a possessed alien? Would such a report also be mentioned?

    "SKS rifle, similar to a military AK-47" - Looking at the definition of an assault weapon, does the SKS meet the definition? No. It is semi-auto only and was designed that way, with a 10 rd. fixed magazine. How then is it similar to a military AK-47? The SKS was designed in 1943-44 by Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov and adopted in 1945. Therefore the correct designation is SKS-45 (Samozaryadni Karabin Simanova - 45, loosely translated semi-auto carbine, Simanov, model 1945). Contrast that with the AK-47, which was designed in 1945-46 by Michail Timofeyevich Kalishnikov and adopted in 1947. The full name of the AK-47 is Avtomat Kalishnikova or Automatic, Kalishnikov, model 1947. That being said, how can a gun adopted 2 yrs. previously be "similar"? The "SKS" is semi-auto only with a fixed 10rd. magazine. The "military Ak-47" is a select-fire (semi or full auto) weapon designed with a detachable 30-rd. magazine. These weapons (the AK-47) are not imported into the United States and never have been. The "AK's" or "AK-47's" that the media seem to love to mention are NOT AK-47's since they do not follow the proscribed design (they're semi-auto only). You might liken it to a NASCAR racing vehicle vs. something you can buy off the showroom floor. They may look similar, even startlingly so, but they are very different where it matters. As to the SKS vs. the AK, the only thing they share is a common cartridge.

    "Bullets hammering his car", etc - The message here seems to be that the SKS fires an incredibly powerful cartridge. In reality, the SKS fires an intermediate powered cartridge, bridging the gap between the pistol calibers and true rifle calibers such as the .30-06, 8mm Mauser or .303 British. Ballistically, the SKS's cartridge (the 7.62x39mm) is nearly identical in power to the .30-30 Winchester. While millions of deer have been killed with the .30-30, no one would seriously consider that cartridge an ultra-powerful cartridge. By the way, while we are on the subject, not only are the cartridges similar but the magazine capacity is also similar between the SKS and many Winchester and Marlin .30-30 lever action deer rifles. Why don't we hear more about these (lever-action deer rifles) deadly weapons?

    Any of these things could have easily been researched on the Internet to accurately reflect fact, not myth. Please do not lower your standards to match your peers in other forms of media. Please continue your excellent tradition of providing accurate, insightful reporting that the people of central Indiana need. Thank you for your time.

    Sincerely,

    Mike xxxxx

    **phone # removed**

    If you would like to handle, or even fire, an SKS to familiarize yourself with it first-hand, please don't hesitate to call me and we can set something up.

    <end e-mail>

    Mr. Strauss wrote back "Thanks for your note. I've fired an SKS before. And a Bushmaster. And various other weapons going back to my first shotgun at age 9. We worked with the best information we could obtain in putting together the story. I appreciate you reading our work and taking the time to comment.

    Maybe I'm off base, but doesn't that sound like I was just told "I know the truth but I try to not let it get in the way of doing my job"???? :rolleyes:

    I guess I am as crazy as they say.......

    Take Care,
    Mike
     
  21. ZeroX

    ZeroX Member

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    Sure does.
     
  22. burbanite

    burbanite Member

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    The thing that really, really gets me is the gun store owners throwing us under the bus. I am calling Mr. Mike Hilton the CEO of Popguns and sending him my unused range tokens chopped in half along with a non too friendly note. Don Davis is and always has been a lost cause.

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=266175
     
  23. Night Guy

    Night Guy Member

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    Don't be too hasty now. I saw the "story" on WTHR at 6pm this evening where they mentioned that Popguns would no longer be selling "high powered rifles." I was enraged that the one gun store I frequent would pander to public opinion. I was ready to demand a refund for my range membership when I heard that.

    I decided I would venture over to his website and see if he's posted any comments on the quote. He did.

    It turns out that he's decided to simply not stock SKS's and AK clones on his shelves. He will still order them for an individual. Apparantly it's his attempt to avoid a civil lawsuit should he decide to not sell an individual either of those rifles. I don't support his decision, but I'm not ready to burn him at the stake.

    Visit www.popguns.com and take a look at his bulletin board.
     
  24. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Race issues aside, one reason Don may be no longer displaying SKSs on the shelves is because Bradis sells them for less than half as much as Dons... :p

    Really, the situation is upsetting. I don't know all the facts - nor does anyone on this board at the moment - but I believe that if someone is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic on medication, that he or she should not be allowed to possess weapons. Unless he or she is force fed the pills, he or she could stop taking them at any time.

    The thing that upset me most was the press conference with the mayor and a couple other guys whose titles I can't recall, answering questions... A reporter (I believe Russ McQuade from his voice but he wasn't on screen) asked why the police dept was so undergunned and how they could be so easily shown up. The black man answered basically calling him an idiot in so few words point out that while the badguy can walk around randomly firing in whichever direction he pleases, police typically prefer to hit their targets. IDIOT! :rolleyes:

    But at least Indy is still better than Dallas with Diane Ragsdale... suggesting cops get rid of their guns and just ride around responding to calls without getting out of their cars... ;)

    As an aside, my father in law was on the scene helping clean up. He is a long time gun guy/sports nut/hunter and he said he was quite surprised at what the police cars look like.
     
  25. ARperson

    ARperson Member

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    I love Bradis.

    The only beef I have with them (well, two issues) is that they are way too close to my house and sell firearms at decent prices.

    Impulse buying is a real problem there.

    But back on topic....

    The "authorities" released the 9-1-1 tapes yesterday and the only thing I can take from them is the extreme panic and hysteria in the voice of the first cop that was shot. Kinda breaks down the argument that cops are "superiorly" trained for such high-stress situations. Not that I'm saying he shouldn't have behaved that way. But that he didn't behave any differently than any other person might have...so how does that show he's got superior training.

    And the account from ociffer that finally shot and killed the perp reads like a freakin' SEAL team de-briefing or something. And they say cops aren't too much like the military.

    I gotta admit, while I am sorry that the dude died, and his wife and daughter will have to struggle with the new hole in their life, I'm not overly concerned. It was his JOB. He knew the risk. And since I've seen IPD officers in action in the past, it makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief to know that I'm served by the county mounty instead.
     
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