Infamy of .38 Spl

[golden]

DR,

You mean ONE agent was firing Silvertips. The rest of the agents were still using revolvers. I believe the rest were using S&W model 13 .357 magnum's with a 3 inch barrel loaded with .38 Special ammo. Afterwards, the FBI dropped the .revolvers and they ended up everywhere in the Justice Department. I know, I was issued one.
That is except for the 2 agents who dropped their model 13's, after pulling them out and placing them on the car seats. The sudden stop through them forward and then back under the car seats. So one agent pulled his backup, a 5 shot snubnose and the other had to just sit there and watch the disaster unfold, as he was unarmed.

All of this was of course was because ONE round of Silvertip did not penetrate deeply enough. Well, so why not fire some more Silvertips at the bad guy. Unfortunately, the only agent with a 9m.m. lost his glasses in the crash/forced stop and although he was the best shot of the 8 agents there, he could not see the target clearly enough.

The FBI blamed everything on the Silvertip when a great deal of this disaster had started long before those brave agents left their office. Poor training, equipment and procedures.

The FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER (FLETC) made a training video about the gun fight and all the things that went wrong, but it was quickly made to disappear. A number of firearms trainers like Massad AYOOB wrote about the gunfight and found the FBI training and tactics wanting, like trying to take on a rifle with handguns (these two sociopaths had established a history by the time of the gunfight, of using a MINI-14 and a shotgun).
Also, I think Chuck TAYLOR, another well known writer and trainer pointed out errors.

The FBI of course blamed everything on the Silvertip which was a popular police round and had worked for many departments.

It only ended when one agent got out, the ONE shotgun they had among 4 cars and 8 agents and shot the bad guys at short range while they were trying to get away and all the other agents were dead, dying, injured or unarmed.

Afterwards, the FBI made a big deal about the failures of the 9m.m., which they just went back to, by the way.

My agency had found the .38 Special was not sufficient and had gone to the .357 magnum, many of which were then coming from the FBI. We also were allowed to carry personally purchased semi autos like the GLOCK, SIG or WALTHER P-88. We carried the agency issued ammo which was the NOT DEEPLY PENETRATING 9m.m. +P+ and did not have any problems with it. Our testing showed that we only needed 9 inches of penetration.

Sorry about the tirade, but it really was a load of political cow manure that followed the gunfight and the infamous Silvertip.


Jim

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Enough with the "Mdl 10 won't tolerate +P ammo" bullcrap. I'd hate think a S&W revolver wouldn't handle a lifetime of the ammo that it was *designed* to be chambered in.

 

[JohnKSa]

Well I am still trying to figure out why the number of rounds fired on average in a police shooting have more than doubled since switching from 6 shot .38 Special loaded with 158 grain RNL and todays blam-o-matics with high performance hollow points.

Because they CAN. They would have done so before as the RNL was a notoriously poor stopper--it wasn't called the widowmaker for nothing. But they ran dry and speedloaders weren't that common.

All of this was of course was because ONE round of Silvertip did not penetrate deeply enough.

The really ironic thing was that it almost certainly penetrated to the FBI's current spec. The issue was that it went through the perpetrator's upper arm on an angle--around 5-6" of penetration. Then it exited the arm and entered the right side of the chest already expanded and penetrated across the chest, stopping just before the heart. Altogether about a foot of penetration--maybe a little more. And that was after having to re-enter the chest already expanded from traveling through the arm.

 

[Monac]

I have to respectfully disagree. The extra case volume of 38 Special will result in significant increase in performance, especially with our modern powders that are available. There is data for reloading 38 Special to 38 Special pressures (not +P ) pressure that will throw a 158 gr bullet to nearly 1000 fps from a service size revolver. Buffalo Bore sells standard pressure 38 Special ammunition that chronos a 158gr bullet at 979 fps and a 125gr bullet at 1078 fps from a 4-inch revolver. That gives 38 Special more than 50% more kinetic energy than traditional 38 Long Colt loadings. 38 Long Colt is so old and became obsolete so long ago it does not even have a SAAMI spec it was a black-powder only cartridge replaced by the 38 Special before SAAMI even existed. And although 38 Special was a black powder cartridge also it became a smokeless cartridge almost from its inception, within a year of initial production.

So even if you willing to load 38 Long Colt with modern smokeless powders to the same pressure as 38 Special the ~15% case volume advantage is always going to put 38 Special ahead of 38 Long Colt for the same peak pressure. There are reasons its been obsolete for well over 100 years now.

I agree with you completely, mcb. 38 Special has significantly greater potential than 38 Long Colt, and nowadays, that potential can be realized at standard pressures. I was referring to the factory ammunition that would have been in use about 60 years ago, when police shooting with 38 Special RNL loads began to increase, followed by increasing complaints about poor effectiveness.

I brought a cartridge reference book today, and it gives two different velocities for the 38 Special 158 grain RNL loads - 775 ft/sec and 800 ft/sec. It gives no explanation for the difference, but it may be due to exactly the kind of improvement you describe. It also give the same figures I did above for 38 Long Colt. So yes, standard pressure 38 Special can now be loaded to a substantially higher velocity than it could originally, and higher than anybody would want to load 38 Long Colt - but when it was introduced, it was not that much different from 38 Long Colt. The difference is about zero compared to the difference between 38 Special and 357 Magnum, which was the original question I was trying to answer.

 

[fxvr5]

Here are some ballistics from old catalogs.

1925 Winchester catalog. All are from a 6" barrel.
38 Short Colt = 130 lead, RN, 608-775 fps.
38 Long Colt = 148 lead RN, 786-805 fps.
38 Special = 158 lead, RN, 825 fps.
Red indicates smokeless powder.

1960 Winchester catalog. All are from a 6" barrel.
38 Short Colt = 130 Lubaloy, 760 fps.
38 Long Colt = 150 Lubaloy, 770 fps.
38 Special = 158 Lubaloy, 855 fps.

1938 Remington-DuPont catalog. All are from a 6" barrel.
38 Short Colt = 125 lead, 770 fps.
38 Long Colt = 150 lead, 785 fps.
38 Special = 158 lead, 870 fps.

 

[Monac]

That's very interesting, fxvr5. There is more of a difference between 38 Long Colt and 38 Special than I thought, but it is still small compared to the difference between 38 Special and 357 Magnum. It is puzzling that the figures keep changing. It reminds me of the old saying, "the only one who knows exactly what time it is is the person with only one clock".

 

[Blkhrt13]

IM proud of how this thread is evolving. heated banter but no inappropriate behavior. I love this forum.

 

[MaxP]

DR,

You mean ONE agent was firing Silvertips. The rest of the agents were still using revolvers. I believe the rest were using S&W model 13 .357 magnum's with a 3 inch barrel loaded with .38 Special ammo. Afterwards, the FBI dropped the .revolvers and they ended up everywhere in the Justice Department. I know, I was issued one.
That is except for the 2 agents who dropped their model 13's, after pulling them out and placing them on the car seats. The sudden stop through them forward and then back under the car seats. So one agent pulled his backup, a 5 shot snubnose and the other had to just sit there and watch the disaster unfold, as he was unarmed.

All of this was of course was because ONE round of Silvertip did not penetrate deeply enough. Well, so why not fire some more Silvertips at the bad guy. Unfortunately, the only agent with a 9m.m. lost his glasses in the crash/forced stop and although he was the best shot of the 8 agents there, he could not see the target clearly enough.

The FBI blamed everything on the Silvertip when a great deal of this disaster had started long before those brave agents left their office. Poor training, equipment and procedures.

The FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER (FLETC) made a training video about the gun fight and all the things that went wrong, but it was quickly made to disappear. A number of firearms trainers like Massad AYOOB wrote about the gunfight and found the FBI training and tactics wanting, like trying to take on a rifle with handguns (these two sociopaths had established a history by the time of the gunfight, of using a MINI-14 and a shotgun).
Also, I think Chuck TAYLOR, another well known writer and trainer pointed out errors.

The FBI of course blamed everything on the Silvertip which was a popular police round and had worked for many departments.

It only ended when one agent got out, the ONE shotgun they had among 4 cars and 8 agents and shot the bad guys at short range while they were trying to get away and all the other agents were dead, dying, injured or unarmed.

Afterwards, the FBI made a big deal about the failures of the 9m.m., which they just went back to, by the way.

My agency had found the .38 Special was not sufficient and had gone to the .357 magnum, many of which were then coming from the FBI. We also were allowed to carry personally purchased semi autos like the GLOCK, SIG or WALTHER P-88. We carried the agency issued ammo which was the NOT DEEPLY PENETRATING 9m.m. +P+ and did not have any problems with it. Our testing showed that we only needed 9 inches of penetration.

Sorry about the tirade, but it really was a load of political cow manure that followed the gunfight and the infamous Silvertip.


Jim

You know, I have read dozens of discussions about that shootout on a variety of gun websites, and that, sir, was the best analysis I have read to date.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

It's very interesting how things that worked well many years ago are deemed inadequate when replaced by better ones in modern times. This is often true but a lot of myth is also created by companies that need to sell their new products to stay in business. This is particularly true of gun companies. Guns when well maintained last several lifetimes and gun manufacturers are well aware of that. They know they would not be in business very long if everyone bought just one shotgun, one high powered rifle, a 22LR and a handgun, kept them in good condition and then passed them on to their children.

There's no doubt that battle rifles & handguns today are more effective than in the past but this is mainly due to operation features like weight reduction, reliability, high capacity, etc. but none of these improvements have much to do with cartridge effectiveness.

One of the most famous pistoleros in history was Wild Bill Hickok. Hickok used 36 (.357) caliber cap & ball revolvers that shot an 80 grain round lead ball at roughly 1,000 fps generating a muzzle energy of about 350 ft-lbs. Hickok was a feared killer & he survived many gunfights using these pistols so he obviously felt quite well armed with two of them strapped to his belt. On the other hand a common load for today's 38 Special is the 158 grain RN lead bullet travelling at about 800 fps generating in a muzzle energy of about 450 ft-lbs. This is nearly 30% increase in energy from the old 36 caliber cap & ball guns Hickok used.

People's physiology has not changed since the days of Wild Bill so if the old 36 caliber black powder handguns were adequate then there's no reason to believe that the modern 38 Special isn't at least equally effective today. The fact that newer more powerful cartridges are developed does not necessarily equate to lack of effectiveness by the old ones.

My most compact (and most frequently carried) handgun is a 5-shot 357 Magnum. I load it with 357 Mag when I'm camping but for everyday SD I load with 38 Special. My reason for this is that the muzzle blast from the 357 Mag in this short barreled revolver is fearsome to say the least and since I shoot the little gun well I feel very well armed against any human opponent with modern 38 Special ammo.

To summarize my point there are definitely much more powerful handgun cartridges than the 38 Special but that does not make the 38 Special inadequate for self defense purposes.

 

[labnoti]

The 115 grain Silvertips fail the 12" in 10% ballistics gelatin test. I believe the 12" minimum was more or less calibrated to the depth needed to reach Platt's heart through his arm. Regardless, Martin Fackler repeatedly excoriated the performance of the 115 grain 9x19mm ammunition in his opinions based on his testing. If they passed his test criteria, he wouldn't have any grounds to criticize them so much. Buford Boone adopted the same criteria at the FBI.

Grogan and Dove both had Smith & Wesson Model 459's in 9x19mm with 115 gr. Silvertips and so did Ronald Risner. Don't forget it was a one-armed man with a wheel gun that actually ended that fight.

The FBI has not gone back to 115 gr. 9x19mm. They are using heavier-for-caliber bullets, which is what Fackler and Boone advocated all along.

 

[fxvr5]

One of the most famous pistoleros in history was Wild Bill Hickok. Hickok used 36 (.357) caliber cap & ball revolvers that shot an 80 grain round lead ball at roughly 1,000 fps generating a muzzle energy of about 350 ft-lbs.

Actually, that produces only 178 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

On the other hand a common load for today's 38 Special is the 158 grain RN lead bullet travelling at about 800 fps generating in a muzzle energy of about 450 ft-lbs. This is nearly 30% increase in energy from the old 36 caliber cap & ball guns Hickok used.

Once again, your math is way off. That only produces 224 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

 

[amd6547]

You know, I have read dozens of discussions about that shootout on a variety of gun websites, and that, sir, was the best analysis I have read to date.

Except that it was a 38spl, the subject of this discussion, that ended the Miami incident, not a shotgun.

 

[labnoti]

Also, only one agent had a Model 13. Another had a Model 19, and Ed Mireles had a 686 which is the gun that ultimately stopped Platt and Matix. Mireles also had an 870 12 gauge but he had been hit in the arm with a .223 and was ineffective with 5 rounds of 12 gauge. He did hit Platt in both feet. It was with his 686 that he fired the final 6 rounds of the fight, stopping both Platt and Matix.

Manauzzi is the one who lost his 357 revolver after he placed in on the front seat and it flew out the door in the crash. Hanlon also lost his 357 revolver in the crash but he had a backup Model 36 that he fought with.

It's worth noting that all the FBI agent's 357 revolvers were loaded with .38 Special +P -- the only ones who were using 357 ammunition were Platt and Matix. They had a 586 and a Dan Wesson. 38 Special ammo was never blamed for a failure in this incident because it did not fail to perform.

Matix was shot 6 times and Platt 12 times. So, no it was not a single Silvertip that failed, but there was one Silvertip that stopped an inch short of Platt's heart and it received blame for underpenetrating.

 

[labnoti]

Even though Ed Mireles heroically ended that fight with his 686, he was not a fan of revolvers afterwards. He became a firearms trainer for the FBI and he personally adopted a Sig P220 (correction: not a Glock as I wrote earlier) in .45 ACP. Later, he accepted the bureau-issued Glock in .40 S&W. After he retired, he went to a G21C. His personal take-away from the incident regarding firearms equipment was that revolvers had too low capacity and were too difficult to reload in a fight, and 9x19mm was not effective enough. His personal analysis might not have been "scientific" but when you consider his first-hand experience, you can't really blame him for the conclusions he made and the choices that resulted in.

 

[Monac]

Actually, that produces only 178 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

Once again, your math is way off. That only produces 224 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

Charlie Martinez, the formula for the kinetic energy of a projectile is one half the mass times the velocity squared (with a correction factory for gravity to convert pounds to a unit of mass). So your figures are coming out double what they should be.

 

[kBob]

JohnKSa,

The numbers for the 60's and 70's ran between 2.7 and 3.2 rounds per shooting....last I checked Model 10s and Police Positive Specials held SIX rounds.

Honestly the higher round counts maybe partially from the militarization of Law Enforcement Agencies, something that was a real concern of some in Law Enforcement when it really started moving in the 1970's.

-kBob

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Sorry folks, forgot to divide by 2.

But the fact remains that the 38 Special generates at least 25% more energy than the loading used by very deadly professional gunfighters 150 tears ago.

That was my main point & I hope that my error in the math doesn't make any less valid.

 

[Kleanbore]

The numbers for the 60's and 70's ran between 2.7 and 3.2 rounds per shooting....last I checked Model 10s and Police Positive Specials held SIX rounds.

No.

No one has ever fired 2.7 rounds, or 3.2, for that matter.

Those are averages--arithmetic means, probably--and are therefore nearly meaningless.

 

[WisBorn]

No.

No one has ever fired 2.7 rounds, or 3.2, for that matter.

Those are averages--arithmetic means, probably--and are therefore nearly meaningless.

I'm going to disagree. If the total number of shots fired is increasing as direct result of a change in the type of firearms used it is useful information to have for training. I think the change to auto loaders is a good change for capacity and reloading. Shooting more shots that don't connect with there intended target is not.

 

[Kleanbore]

If the total number of shots fired is increasing as direct result of a change in the type of firearms used it is useful information to have for training.

That hypothesis remains speculative.

Shooting more shots that don't connect with there intended target is not [good].

One would tend to conclude that, but if shooting more rounds reduces casualties among defenders, the possibility that more misses may be fired would not offset the benefit.

You implied that some averages in that round to 3 make a capacity of 6 rounds acceptable. That does not follow.

 

[robhof]

I've got an old S&W Airweight that I've carried for yrs with cast wad cutters and feel very confortable, haven't used it for SD but feel safe carrying it as I can easily do a 4" group at 10 yds with a fast shoot. Super 454 or 50cal that misses the target is less useful than a miniscule 38 that puts 5 rounds in the boiler! I have dispatched car hit deer with it and they go down fast and hard!

 

[WisBorn]

That hypothesis remains speculative.

One would tend to conclude that, but if shooting more rounds reduces casualties among defenders, the possibility that more misses may be fired would not offset the benefit.

You implied that some averages in that round to 3 make a capacity of 6 rounds acceptable. That does not follow.

Understanding shots fired compared to results is useful information. After Miami Dade shooting it is my understanding that there was a push to change the firearms that are used by the FBI. A big reason why the 40 s&w was developed. I think police carrying auto loaders is a good idea. Carrying a 38 revolver with modern ammo for ccw is still an acceptable option.
The biggest thing is being able to collect valid information in order to develop good recommendations. This is sometimes more difficult than one would think.

 

[golden]

MaxP,

Thank you

Charlie M,

You are overlooking the fact that Wild Bill was a terrific shot, more or less fearless and killer who did not hesitate. That does not describe the vast majority of gun owners and law enforcement. If I could shoot like HICKOCK, I would be competing professionally.

The problem with the .38 Special remains which ammunition you select. I prefer the FEDERAL HST because it will expand and increase the chance of ending the fight.

Also, the FBI made up that 12 inch rule. It suited them and it allowed them to blame the Silvertip for all the OTHER MISTAKES. Like I have said before, my agency studied the gun fights we had and then set a minimum of 9 inches. That was based on many gunfights, not one.

I keep a loaded S&W model 15 in .38 Special, in my house. It is not my house gun, but is located where it can be gotten too when I have not taken the M9A3 out of the safe. It was bought used, shoots smoothly and accurately and cost one third of what I paid for the BERETTA.
I would not hesitate to use it for self defense, but I LOAD IT WITH EFFECTIVE AMMO, "not the get yourself killed round nose lead."

Jim

 

[Kleanbore]

Understanding shots fired compared to results is useful information

Trying to glean such an understanding from actual gunfight data is not a good way to go about it.

First, there are far too few data points to yield reliable results.

Second , the the data are not collected with any real degree of scientific discipline.

Third, there are too many extraneous variables.

The need is for a lot of data, recorded consistently, without the introduction of extraneous variables.

The FBI Training Academy gathered its data scientifically, and obtained repeatable results from which reliable conclusions can be drawn.

The recommended the 9mm. They did not gather data for the .38 Special because there was no need.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

I keep a box of 50 Atomic inverted 38sp +P semiwads under the seat in my car. I'm not sure why since 99% of the time I carry a 9mm.

Oh, ok... I guess I do sort of have a reason. Two reasons, really. One is because once in a blue moon I carry my Charter Arms 357 or my Dan Wesson 15, especially. I have speedloaders for both, but if I was in a jam I'd have a whole box of 50 to play with. Maybe holed up in our store during a night of rioting. Maybe being forced to take off through the woods if the freeway got clogged during a national crisis.

The other reason is if I had a 9mm with me but was with a person who had a 38.

People dont hold those inverted semiwadcutters in high regard. They say they keyhole and have awkward expansion. Well, I have NEVER had them keyhole, at 25 yards anyway. They cut perfect holes in paper better than RN or HP's and they tear up stumps and stuff pretty well. Maybe a little awkward but they would still do a number on someone compared to an RN. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be hit with one. I'm kind of glad people thumb them down. Makes them a very economical alternative for me. And theyre fairly hot too.