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Insight of a Bull's-Eye

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Swamp Fox, Aug 7, 2005.

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  1. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    Hello everyone .

    I'm new here, so maybe this might a good way of introducing myself by posting one of two articles I've written . Now , I know this is a controversial issue , so please don't be to hard on me.


    Insight of a Bull's-Eye

    by Swamp Fox

    A lot has happened since the good old days of crack-shots like Annie Oakley, or the expert marksmanship of William F. Cody, a.k.a. "Buffalo Bill" Much of what was once civilian marksmanship has been replaced under the catch-all modern-day military term called "Sniping". Sharp shooting, or sniping, first became famous as a philosophical weapon during the Civil War when champion marksman Hiram C. Berdan of New York was authorized to raise a regiment of sharpshooters for the Union Army. To qualify, a recruit had to place 10 shots in a 10-inch circle at 200 yards. Regardless of what term or method that's used to identify someone's skill level, at the core of these techniques are 5 basic fundamentals that need to be applied; with no shortcuts for each and every bull's-eye.

    Probably, no one adapted these five fundamentals any better and was more famous as a sharpshooter than William F. Cody, a.k.a. "Buffalo Bill". Legend has it, much of it according to Cody; that he killed 6,570 buffalo in the 18 months he worked for the Kansas Pacific railroad; hunting to feed the construction crews with little or no waste. All edible parts of the buffalo were reported to have been consumed. Back in those days good marksmanship was measured by how many buffalo were taken in a day with a one shot one kill. Better yet, Cody reported going quail hunting all-day with friends like Annie Oakley and bringing home six quails having only shot six times. That's probably a stretch, but those who practice this type of sportsmanship would never consider dry- firing their firearms to gain an edge over marksmanship because they did not need too. It would be hard for one to imagine a sharpshooter like Buffalo Bill or crack- shot Annie Oakley needing to do any practicing to improve their shooting techniques.

    According to legend, Oakley herself started shooting at the age of 8 and by the time she was 12 had a business supplying restaurants with wild game meat. One can only imagine how much her marksmanship improved with age. Sportsmen /sportswomen of those times starting out taking pride in one's ability in knowing the proper distance to lead a running rabbit, deer, flying pheasant, grouse or how to hold a tight group in their shooting pattern under all kinds of conditions. This they believed is what marksmanship was all about. In most cases during those early days, a hunter having something to rest their shotgun or rifle on would be considered by some folks a lucky shot. These days it's called Sniping and measured by how many notches or confirmed kills one has to his or her credit.

    To become a good marksman, safety always has to be at the forefront in one's thinking. I started shooting at a very early age, nine or so. If we wanted to participate in hunting, the proper safe handling of firearms needed to be proven to our peers and elders in advance, and this also meant becoming good at marksmanship. One of the golden rules back then was to treat and consider all firearms as if it's loaded with live ammunition; this way there were no excuses for accidents. Always keeping the gun pointed at the ground or in the air, but never at a person. A shooter was also responsible for where a bullet might stop; that meant even a bullet's backdrop needed to be considered before taking a shot. This also meant there was never a need to dry-fire a weapon; even releasing the firing pin before putting a rifle away was done by squeezing the trigger back at the same time locking the bolt down. We also were led to believe that dry-firing could damage the gun's firing pin. This could very well have been a myth created by some gun manufactures to minimize the squeezing of a firearm's trigger which in return would help to minimize unnecessary accidents. Especially considering most folks put a lot of value in their guns and would teach their youngsters not to damage them at all costs.

    There is a school of thought that claims dry-firing is a necessary part of becoming good at marksmanship and they back this up with military and FBI Sniper experts. One in particular was the late Gunnery. Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, who was a Marine sniper, was considered by some to be the founding father of modern sniping. He was alleged to have had 93 confirmed human kills. His biography, "Marine Sniper," written by Charles Henderson, was published in 1985. He once said that Vietnam was "just right" for him. Although he also told a fellow Marine that he never looked at his work "as a shooting match where the man with the most kills wins the gold medal". My older brother actually served side-by-side with Hathcock, in Vietnam with the First Battalion - First Marines in 1966.and has some interesting observations and opinions of those days.

    The FBI also maintains a sniper school primarily for law enforcement. One of its Snipers, Lon Horiuchi gained much attention for his actions during the Siege at Ruby Ridge. It was Horiuchi who shot Randy Weaver's wife Vicki as she stood in the doorway, holding their 10-month-old baby. Nevertheless, I've never considered myself any kind of sniping expert, thank God to my knowledge never took a human life during my tour in Vietnam. However, I've always taken some pride in the fact that during my Army basic training I qualified as an expert and finished second out of 350 other guys at the rifle range. This, other than the occasional turkey shoot, is the only competitive shooting I've ever participated in. Although the Army had an excellent training program back then, I felt my skills in marksmanship were developed long before ever being drafted into the military.

    The problem with military and others Sniper training (dry- firing) is designed for killing human's with offense tactics and handling of weapons in a controlled environment. I can't help but feel these tactics, while necessary for the military, are not a good choice for training young civilian marksmen. A lot of youngsters never have any kind of supervision or training to speak of and once they become of legal age can purchase firearms under their Second Amendment rights. With little or no training in safety it's a scary potential for disaster exits. I remember all too well hunting during the '60s before hunter's safety courses became law; lots of guys were walking around the mountains in Western Maryland with their safety off not knowing any better from a lack of proper training. When confronted over their poor safety techniques their usual response was a challenge to fight over a bruised ego.

    For one to train themselves to become a good marksman, 5 important elements listed below will need to be applied. In my opinion, good marksmanship is about consistently performing these five elements, often enough to make them automatic.


    Controlled Breathing

    Sight Alignment

    Trigger Pull

    Shooting In Groups of 3

    Do Not Anticipate Recoil.


    With practice a good marksmen using open sites should be able to, at 100 yards, place three consecutive shots that can be covered with a quarter. There are two different methods to tell the shooter if they are flinching or pulling the rifle at the point of its going off. First, if the group of 3 is not consistent regardless of its overall outside diameter. Second, have someone other than the shooter randomly load the weapon; the loader should occasionally not place a round in the chamber. The observer will then immediately be able to see if the shooter is flinching and thus disturbing their sight alignment.

    There are two very important things about the use of a three-shot group when shooting for accuracy. First, some rifles become overheated after the third round and will not hold a tight group. A good example of this would be the Savage model 110 -300 magnum. The barrel on this rifle becomes very hot and the fourth round will not stay within a tight group or pattern. That does not mean to say there's anything wrong with the Savage rifles, only this is the nature of this particular caliber. Second, mountain rifles are normally designed with a light stock and therefore have a tremendous amount of recoil. One-way to help reduce recoil is by installing a muzzle break. In some rifles like a 280 this can reduce recoil comparable to that of the 243.

    Bring the front site to a very fine point in the rear V, at the same time taking all the other four elements simultaneously into consideration; shooting in groups of 3 is making one's bull's-eye, regardless if they're hitting the target center. Moreover, it's one thing to practice one's skills not being under pressure, and a completely different thing when adrenalin is applied. Comparable to that of seeing a nice Buck or being in a combat situation. However, practicing shooting in groups of 3 to make a bull's-eye, allows one to focus on the task at hand (consistency). The principal behind this is under pressure your reflexes and previous practicing, along with training skills, will take over.

    Shooting is no different than any other sport: consistency, coordination, practice and focus are key elements in fine-tuning a skill level, to bring them ( five mentioned earlier) together successfully at one point (accuracy) in a bull's-eye. Leaving just one element out of shooting would create a handicap and not give the shooter a true picture of their skills. Without this it would be impossible for the observer (trainer) or shooter to understand which one of five needs improvement. One very good example would be archery, consistency in one's technique in their draw; stand and stop the drawing of the bow before releasing at the same point (cheek) every time. Just imagine a shooter practicing dry-firing with a compound bow to perfect his release. So, unquestionably, the claim by some folks that dry-firing is necessary to become good or great at marksmanship just does not hold water. One could very easily make a claim that they are leaving out one very important element in the training process of their mind to deal with recoil.

    One could easily draw the conclusion that there is no danger in the practice of dry-firing and therefore philosophically take the position this it is not a safety issue. However, there is no evidence that those who practice good marksmanship prior to the modern-day term called sniping ever needed to dry-fire their firearms to make a bulls-eye. Furthermore, even folks like Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages or Mr. Jim Owens himself that advocate this practice points out there is indeed a safety issue at stake . What's even more disturbing some folks like Mr. Ed Skinner advocate this practice, but then add a disclaimer that says and I quote " I must, therefore, disclaim all warranties and responsibilities for the Trash Can Snap Cap for any purpose whatsoever."


    "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and the Big Lie" - By Jim Owens
    http://www.jarheadtop.com/chapters.htm

    Dry Firing Practice By Fr. Frog's Shooting Pages
    http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/safety.htm

    Article by Ed Skinner
    http://www.flat5.net/trashcansnapcap.html

    GY. SGT. CARLOS N. HATHCOCK II
    http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/sniper pages/Carlos.html


    If one take the time to read what's been written about GY. SGT. CARLOS N. HATHCOCK II and his personal quotes , that just stop short of him saying he enjoyed killing other human beings . You'll also notice that during 65 serving with the first battalion first U.S. Marines he had problems some of his peers .As I mention in the article my older brother actually served side-by-side with him for two weeks in Vietnam . Two years ago before writing this article my brother spoke of that experience. He said and I quote , "HATHCOCK was an F ..en idiot , he was trigger happy and would shoot at anything that moved" unquote . The Internet dictionary 's interpretation of the term" Trigger Happy " is 1 : irresponsible in the use of firearms; especially : inclined to shoot before clearly identifying the target


    Now , probably like some other here, I was trained by the military to kill humans not animals and being from a Mennonite background that went against every part of my beliefs. During basic training I'll never forget what the drill sergeants would say to us if we call our weapon a gun. Trainees , "there's only two kinds of guns in this world , the 1 you go squirrel hunting with back home , and the other one is between your legs .thinking too much about either is only going to get yourself killed where we're going ". Well , I survived Vietnam and made it back home alive to tell about it. So in short , if any of you folks that's never seen a human body hit with a bullet and want to learn how to kill people , by all means join military and stay there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2005
  2. Tim Burke

    Tim Burke Member

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    Gunnery Sgt. Hathcock returned multiple times to a burning vehicle to save his unconscious fellow Marines from death, suffering extensive burns to himself in the process. Speaking poorly of such a man only degrades the speaker.
     
  3. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    With all due respect , Tim Burke . I believe Mr. Hathcock quotes speak for themselves.
     
  4. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    One of the reason for that, is because unless a person knows the exact distance to target, it would be almost impossible to understand how ballistics would measure into a bull's-eye formula.
     
  5. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

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    Dry firing is one way for us amateurs to get, on the cheap, some of the benefits of the abundant practice that professional shooters get. Not all of us started shooting for a living as a child or have an unlimited ammo budget.

    What does Gunny Sargeant Hathcock have to do with this? One can draw no conclusions about whether dry firing is good or not by examining the character of one man. Whether a man makes his shots is a better gauge of the merits of his training.

    Is it your thesis that dry firing makes people trigger happy? If so, you need to bolster that argument. If not, your point would be better served by leaving out the bit about Lon Horiuchi as well.

    The Hathcock link is busted.
     
  6. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    First WayneConrad , thanks for pointing out the link didn't work , please try this one.

    http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/sniper pages/Carlos.html

    "Dry firing is one way for us amateurs to get, on the cheap, some of the benefits of the abundant practice that professional shooters get."

    The handling of firearms is no place to subsidize safety for cheap. If one can't aboard live ammunition they have no business play around firearms. In short there's no place for amateurs .
     
  7. Nio

    Nio Member

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    So if you weren't born a professional, you shouln't ever handle a firearm?

    Nio
     
  8. itgoesboom

    itgoesboom member

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    Having your first posts be disparaging remarks about Hathcock ("my brother said yada yada yada", "He was alleged to have had 93 confirmed human kills." (note, those are confirmed kills, not alleged kills :rolleyes: )), probably isn't the best idea.

    Your advice regarding accuracy is good, but, I disagree with your view on dry firing. Many firearms have to have their triggers pulled to assemble or dissassemble prior to cleaning.

    I.G.B.
     
  9. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    So what you're saying is...if we can't launch thousands of rounds downrange every week and have the budget for the ammunition AND the replacement parts we are wearing down (which it will at those numbers), then we shouldn't own firearms at all? So you suggest we never practice with simulations and always go to the real deal? I suppose in Airborne school, they should skip straight to the third week and shove people off planes instead of teaching them on a chaulkboard and from ground towers. We shouldn't hold driver's education courses. They should give car keys to children and tell them to drive now or they have no business around motor vehicles.

    Last time I checked, 20 rounds of .338 Lapua were $60. Match-grade 50 BMG is $5 apiece. I can hardly imagine someone who spends $20,000 a month on ammo. I guess I don't know any because they're amateurs and have no place or business around firearms.

    I only shoot a few hundred rounds a month on my AR15. I guess I better sell all my guns and take up basketweaving :rolleyes: Someone check the troll-o-meter.
     
  10. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    Cesiumsponge , I go to the rifle range these days may be once or twice a year, normally with my sako 280 . I might shoot nine times but probably only six times , and I'll guarantee you that within these numbers there'll be a group of 3 that can be covered with a quarter at a hundred yards.
     
  11. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    And that justifies or ties in with your previous comments... how?

    A quarter grouping at 100 yards is hardly a way to summarily measure the worth of a shooter. Try getting anyone to do that with a Tec-9 or an AK-47. So all it takes to consider one "professional" in your opinion is shooting a sub-MOA group? Now is that open sights or a 1x red dot, or are we talking magnified optics? Please, I'm dying to know what YOUR professional standard is for the rest of the world.

    I've shot a best group of ~1.75" @ 100yds with XM193, a NATO 5.56mm 55gr FMJ. I accomplished this using a non-magnified EOTech optic on a 16" dissipator carbine with a factory trigger. M193 ammo will hold 2MOA groupings but you can't squeeze sub-MOA performance out of it.

    How does that compare with someone who owns a stainless steel 26" barreled .338 LM rail gun using match-grade ammo through a 10x US Optics scope on a 1/2lb trigger. The rifle is capable of .25MOA groups, but the guy shoots .75 MOA, well under the diameter of your hallowed quarter.

    Does that make him professional and my being amateur because his physical groupings are smaller even though I shot to the maximum ability of my rifle and ammo selection. He shot three times worse than the maximum ability of his ammo and rifle. Your arguments don't hold much water.
     
  12. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Besides the numerous grammatcal errors in your diatribe/rant, Swamp Fox, there are many diconnected statements and an overall lack of organization. The origins of the word 'sniper' are British not American,and individual marksmen had been utilized in war long before the Civil War. I believe sniping to be more a psychological weapon than a philisophical one. And dry firing, particularly 'the dime exercise', is very useful in learning 4 of your five elements. I hold the fifth one ' shoot in groups of three' to be of value only while punching paper, and then only for sighting in. What are you going to do in combat, wait for the barrel to cool down? I'm sure you didn't.
    William F. Cody wasn't that remarkable of a shot. One shot-kill placement on a buffalo, particularly at the ranges and target density he encountered would be more indicative of his ability to rapidly reload than his marksmanship. ( not saying he was a lousy shot; just that he wasn't as good as legend makes him out to be, and that quantity of rounds fired isn't a measure of marksmanship.)

    No, to the vast majority of shooters, it's call a field expedient rest, and a good practice to ensure accuracy. I am confused. Here,
    , you sound quite anti, equating any sort of accuracy with "Sniping" , then go on to equate sniping with a "patience my butt, I'm going to kill something" attitude. Perhaps Gunny Hathcock was this way; I did not know him. But I have know several US Army Snipers, and they view their job as an important force multiplier; a way to save many of their brother and sister soldiers from becoming casualties. Then you outline your hunting and military achievments in a manner similar to John Kerry in the last election, seemigly in an attempt to gain credibility.

    We agree on many things. I believe that hunter safety will only improve as the last generation that was not required to take hunter safety classes grows too old to hunt. I too, have met many yahoos that don't utilize the safety, claiming 'it scares the deer away' etc. Or the ones that 'sound shoot'; because of these idiots, we are required to wear blaze orange while deer hunting. :cuss:

    [open sights, BTW] ;)

    Not all weapons can do this. With a weapon capable of doing this, I agree; three rounds under an inch is a good measure of a marksman. From a bench. If you can do this offhand consistently, my hat's off to ya. The funny thing is , is there are dang few benches on the battlefield or in the deer woods, and you have already condemned field expedient rests, so what's a good rifleman/woman to do? Practice shooting offhand, kneeling supported, kneeling unsupported, and prone. And rare is the marksman that can consistently acheive 1" at 100 yds. from offhand or the kneeling positions. I can't, and I 'm not a bad shot.

    I think you have part of the method of sighting a gun in confused with a theory of marksmanship. Or did you mean triple taps/Mozambique? The idea of marksmanship is to be able to put one bullet where it is needed on a consistent basis. You fire a group of three rounds from a sandbagged bench position initially when sighting in to establish a group center to be moved from POI (Point of Impact) to POA (Point of Aim). Once the POI is established, one adjusts the sights in one direction only at a time , and I start with the one thats further off, or windage if they are equal. Adjust until it hits on line with the corresponding axis (vertical zero line if adjusting windage, horizontal zero line if adjusting elevation), then adjust the other until your POA and POI coincide. You rifle (or pistol) is now sighted in. You should from then on be able to put one shot from a sandbagged bench position within the three shop group area the rifle is capable of, covering the POA consistently. Indeed, the zero needs to be checked in just this manner, by firing several single rounds at several 1" circle or sqaure targets after being sighted in, and at regular intervals. (Prior to deer season, etc.) Once the rifle is sighted in as such, one can train to fight tactically, or learn to fire from the various positions one finds oneself in when deer show up. (like squatting taking a dump, like happened to my uncle. He missed that one. ;) ) The only reason three rounds might be required there is if one is practicing Mozmbiques, two COM, one head. This of course requires two different POA's anyway.

    Now, on to dry firing.
    [emphasis mine] Basis for the conclusion. It is true some firearms are damaged by dry firing with out a snap cap or at least a spent round to absorb the impact. But this is less and less the case with modern firearms. It takes a lot of dry firing to ruin an M16 firing pin, since you cited the military earlier. I did it constantly, yet never had to replace one; I certainly would have been able to determine that, as I was a Unit Armorer. I did dime exercises all day long some days in the Arms Room, and indeed it helped maintain my ability to concentrate on what the rifle is going to do to the target, not to me. Dry fire allows for practice when range time is not an option, and/ or in supplement to it. Of course, before attempting to dry fire, safety must be considered. All involved should know the four rules, and how they apply to dry firing. Obviously to an absolutist (Col. Cooper, et al.) dry firing violates at least three of the four rules. Therefore, the utmost caution must be exercised with Rule One; All involved must check all firearms, and no live ammo can be accessible. A safe backstop must be in place, with regard to beyond the target.
    It's not necessary , but not everybody has unlimited range time and ammo. Even when Uncle Sugar was footing the bill, I didn't get enough time on the range or ammo, and I certainly don't now. Buddy loading dummy rounds immensly helps on the range, both with checking flinch and malfuntion drills. It is an indispensable part of training. Dry fire, when properly done by a responsible individual, can be a valuable training tool also. Perhaps your fear of dry firing is the result of somebody in your past's own experiences; maybe they had an ND while attempting to dry fire, or whatever. But I for one will still ocassionally do it, and do it safely. :)
    YMMV, and that's alright. :)
     
  13. itgoesboom

    itgoesboom member

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    Hmmmm, Lets see.....

    [​IMG]

    Yup, its a troll. :rolleyes:

    I.G.B.
     
  14. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    Actually Cesiumsponge, the fact is , these days I'm doing it using a typical rifle scope . However, starting in or around the age of 11 used open sites up until I was 27 or so. I'd probably need a little practice with my savage model 110 .308 but I'd bet within 21 round or so, I'd be shooting in groups of 3 that could be covered with a quarter at 100 yards. See , we always did our major practicing with a rifle setup without a scope. Normally, a smaller caliber. like a 22. Just think, back in those days , fifty rounds of ammunition could be purchased for less than 50 cents.
     
  15. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    Hongimaster, is that you?

    We have missed your wisdom.








    NOT!




    DM
     
  16. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    Well entropy , I've read what you've written several times and it only reinforces my article. In my opinion back with over 48 years of safely handling firearms , not to mention my military training , I believe the term "Dry Firing" comes under the same interpretation as " Trigger Happy " is 1 : irresponsible in the use of firearms; especially : inclined to shoot before clearly identifying the target" and therefore it is a irresponsible act , not only for practice but also those folks that's openly advocating or endorsing.
     
  17. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    I'll stop in here long enough to point out that calling "troll!" is a form of trolling in and of itself.

    :)
     
  18. entropy

    entropy Member

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    :confused: How does it reinforce your article? Apparently logic and reason do not affect you. I am not 'trigger happy, nor am I irresponsible. I taught firearms handling in the military. Being a gunsmith, I agree with itgoesboom. Some firearms have to be dry fired to dissassemble them, and all have to be tested with action proving dummy rounds for functioning in the shop. According to your overly simplistic line of thinking, some weapons could never be dissassembled, and none of them could be function checked correctly. Why, you'd be absolutely livid at what I did the other day in the shop. I had to look down a barrel with a bore light and dry fire it to determine maximum firing pin protrusion while under the hammer. :what: According to you I am dead. :rolleyes:
    But I tire of this. You are entitled to your opinion, but know that it is just that, and not fact. :scrutiny:
     
  19. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    OK entropy , here's a fact. About a year ago I got into this discussion on another web site and one of firearms being discussed was the Remington shotgun model 1100 that's in my gun collection . So like a dummy, I went to my gun cabinet to see how I had put it away, considering I haven't shot it in over four years. Well , needless to say, I thought it had been stored with the firing pin released. So you're right, some weapons need to be dry fired to release firing pin , but my suggestion is follow the manufacturers suggestions for storage therefore they are responsible.
     
  20. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Hey, Swamp Fox , I just noticed something; By your own admission, you are no longer a rifleman. :neener:

    Exhibit A:
    I am assuming you meant open sights. :rolleyes:

    Exhibit B:
    This is not open sights.

    Exhibit C:
    Note Exhibit D.

    Exhibit D:
    So, which is it? :scrutiny: 6,9, or 21 or so? A good rifleman should be able to do it with the first shot, because that's all a deer or enemy combatant will give you. You have been outted; trollmic.gif it goes boom was correct.
     
  21. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    Well entropy , like you said, we are entitled to our opinions
     
  22. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

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    Dry Firing

    Swamo Fox,

    Question(s):

    1. What was the purpose/goal of this article?
    2. What are your professional qualifications? (This is merely a curiousity as one does not need professional qualifications to pontificate on THR).
    3. How many animals have you harvested in your lifetime?
    4. Have you ever shot in any type of firearms competition(s)?
    5. Why did you feel compelled to bring this article to THR as your first post?

    I could ask a lot more, but I think those will help me (us) understand you alittle better...

    Thank you in advance for your reply.
     
  23. Eric Bryant

    Eric Bryant Member

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    There's a fine line between trolling and just a bit of innocent attention-whoring. Judging by the fact that Mr. Fox engaged this topic not once but twice on the FAL Files (here and here - note the return to the first thread after the second was locked), this is just flat-out trolling.

    Gotta admit, though, I've never seen someone who actually calls for legislation banning dry-fire practice, so at least this is something a bit new and novel.
     
  24. Swamp Fox

    Swamp Fox member

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    Well Eric ,you evidently didn't read where after this guy continuously tried to sale me on this practice, that I finally said he wasn't listening, because if I could and was commander-in-chief of this country , I'd give an order that said , any soldier that advocates this practice( Dry Firing) to the civilian population will be stood in front of a firing squad and shot for disobeying orders.
     
  25. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Member

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    You must be one heck of a shot, Swamp Fox. I know some exceptional shots, and they can't put three shots into a quarter without some kind of rest.

    I can put five .308 shots into a dime, but I do so with all the sandbag support I can get, and with a 20X scope. But I'm not a rifleman.
     
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