Quantcast

Intentionally Revealing your CC?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by mugs79, Dec 22, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,433
    Location:
    North Central Florida and Miami Florida
    My thoughts are that I would not display a gun, or give any indication that I had one, unless there was an imminent attack, or an actual attack. At that point, all bets are off.
     
  2. SuperDuty7.3

    SuperDuty7.3 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    16
    i know an ex cop. he was walking to the opera with his wife. he was a cop at the time so he was carrying in a shoulder holster. a bum started following him dowm the street asking for money. he keeps asking him to go away stop asking... bu the bum keeeps following. finally he turns around opens his tux coat ans reveals his gun. the bum about ***** himself then wlaked away. but the bum was turning into a threat and not just a shady character...
     
  3. David N

    David N Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    345
    I Wouldn't

    In some states it's illegal to display a weapon in order to scare and/or threaten someone. Here it's called "Brandishing a Weapon" and it's a misdemeanor. Even if it's not illegal in your store you are almost sure to get the cops called on you. :uhoh:
     
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    12,952
    Location:
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    Not casually, I could see a situation where I reach and prepare to draw, in the process of deciding whether or not to fire, and then stopping, but if I were looking to make a point, the correct answer is to walk away.

    Utah law doesn't require me to conceal, but it's still a bad idea to flash. Depending on the situation, it will be construed as a threat.
     
  5. SuperDuty7.3

    SuperDuty7.3 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    16
    ya he was a cop though, above the law
     
  6. eyebrows

    eyebrows Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    63
    Location:
    Indy
    Hypothetically if somebody tripped my spidey sense I'd try to make clear, using body language, that I was alert and not an easy target but I would not flash. It stays out of sight until the SHTF. If shady guy was walking directly toward me and looked like he was going to intercept I would issue a warning "Nice day, stay away from me" or something like that while changing my course. If he followed and the situation went bad and could not be diffused then I would draw.
     
  7. wayno

    wayno Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    50
    From what i have read and heard in state of Missouri and
    are CC, if someone says they saw your piece you can be arrested.
    We are allowed open carry but dont know if you have a cc
    permit if you are allowed OC.:confused:

    Wayno
     
  8. TheComputerGuy

    TheComputerGuy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3
    Never display a weapon unless it will be used to defend a life.
     
  9. tinygnat219

    tinygnat219 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,939
    Location:
    The Land of Northern Hospitality and Southern Effi
    I hope by "Intentionally Revealing" you mean that "my life is in imminent danger". That's the only way I would EVER draw my defense weapon.

    Other than that scenario, it's called brandishing, or can be construed as assault depending on your local laws.
     
  10. buck00

    buck00 Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,078
    Location:
    Lower Silesia, PA
    It depends on the situation. I was surprised at how many posts were dead against it based on legality- and the fear that the perp would run off and dial 911. If you've sized up the perp as a threat, chances are he's not the type who wants to call the cops, fill out a report, etc- he's up to no good.

    The second issue I hear, is how revealing one's CCW deprives you of a tactical advantage.

    * There seems to be little consideration (here in this thread) of the normal psychological reaction to finding out someone is armed. The normal reaction is to simply go away- why antagonize someone who is armed? Criminals look for easy prey. So revealing a CCW can actually de-escalate a situation rapidly in some situations.

    I'm not saying anyone should brandish or reveal their CCW in any situation, but the flip side of that is wrong too... saying one should never reveal their CCW.

    Ok, I usually don't write long posts as many THR members have short attention spans, but this story is worth telling. If you care to read it, yes there is a point- it illustrates how revealing a CCW can de-escalate things with perps.


    My brother-in-law was taking night college classes. He couldn't carry on campus due to the school rules (didn't want to risk getting expelled). He was driving home from class late (after 10 pm) when his car stalled on a hill in the city. He coasted to the bottom of the hill and turned into the first parking lot he saw. The car was dead. He looks around and realizes he pulled into a low-income housing project. He didn't have a cell phone. However, luckily a police car was there and he was able to get the attention of the officer.
    Basically the cop helps him out, calls his Dad for him (who lives 30 min away). Then the cop says he has to get going to respond to another call, but says "well, you're in a pretty bad part of town. I'd lock your doors and lay on the floor of your car- stay out of sight until your Dad gets here." And then the LEO promptly leaves.

    Well, within 10 or 15 minutes the locals of the housing project become pretty interested in him. Apparently first some teens on bikes road up, looked in, and realized he was in there, then began to circle the car and make insulting comments and question why he was there, etc. Remember, he has no cell phone and no weapons in the car, doors are locked, windows up- he is waiting for his Dad to show up to pick him up.

    Then a crowd begins to form about 30 yards away, containing teens, and young adults... with apparently nothing better to do at 10:30 at night. The begin to yell out challenges, jeers, such as "why you in our neighborhood you white m------!!?" etc etc. I’m just telling the story, not trying to upset anyone. My brother-in-law notices the small crowd begins to near him a little at a time- almost as if they had to work up their courage. They basically had moved within 15 yards of the car and were throwing things (pennies, aluminum cans) when his Dad shows up. They were sort of thrown off by the arrival (his Dad drove up pretty fast and confidently) and backed off about 20 yards, but were still standing staring there watching.

    My brother-in-law's Dad is an engineer, pro-2nd amendment advocate, born-again-Christian, and did two tours in Vietnam. He gets out of his car, and my brother-in-law gets out too. Of course my brother-in-law is quietly pleading to leave, but his Dad wants to check under the hood and see what is wrong. But he also notes the small crowd and at this point the ringleader gets his courage back and begins to make verbal taunts and threats, etc.

    His Dad gives the guy a look, but the guy keeps running his mouth- trying to pump up the group. Then he simply pulled his sweatshirt up in an absent-minded way as he leaned over to check the engine, blatantly revealing his stainless steel 1911 on his hip. Literally there was a sudden shout of "Sh--! The old head is strapped!!" followed by the sound of scurrying footsteps. The parking lot was clear within 10 seconds. The situation was completely de-escalated.
     
  11. Old NFO

    Old NFO Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    494
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Concealed is concealed- Why give up your edge? I agree with the others, I'd get clear of the situation and if I couldn't I would wait until I have no other option before drawing my weapon. I wouldn't show it at all
     
  12. Tarvis

    Tarvis Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,178
    Location:
    Northern Pennsylvania
    I haven't read all the posts, but I'll give my thoughts anyhow. If you intentionally show anyone your firearm it can be construed as assault with a deadly weapon. The key word in that was intentionally. If I'm waltzing through a parking lot or anyother place and bend over to pick something up and someone spots my pistol, they'd better have a good lawyer that doesn't mind wasting time as I clearly was not directing anything at them. However, concealed means concealed.

    That being said, your common criminal (as far as I know or care to guess) is a skiddish creature that will flee in the view of any serious confrontation. Face him and look him straight in the eye until he decides you are not easy prey, thats what I would do.

    Your other common predator is the tough guy/guys, such as the characters in buck00's excelent story. This may have been one of the few situations where the "oops, my pistol is showing" moves would work well. This is also a situation where you are very close to having the right to reveal, even draw your weapon in self defence. My CCW class was taught by a former LE that had worked in LE most of his life. Your attacker needs to have 3 things for you to defend yourself: the ability, the means, and the manifested intent. If the ring leader in Buck00's story would have assaulted either of them, ie. "I'm gonna break you foo" or something to that extent, he would have manifested his intent to do the brother-in-law harm. He already had the means and the ability with 30 like-minded people standing around. The story also shows a situation where it is a good idea to bring an extra mag or three.

    All in all, keep it concealed, and remember: WSHTF look for your 3 things
     
  13. tepin

    tepin Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    563
    Location:
    AZ
    If I believed I were about to be physically assaulted and I had attempted to retreat or for some reason I couldn’t retreat then yes, I would pull my gun and maintain a low ready position with the firearm. If the attacker continues his approach after making him aware that I am armed and retreat is not possibly, then it becomes a shoot because:
    He is going for a gun. It doesn’t matter if the gun is on the floor or in your hand, he is going for it and a reasonable person should conclude that he (the attacker) believes he has the ability to disarm you and use the firearm against you.
     
  14. rrruuunnn

    rrruuunnn Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Texas
    showing your weapon could cause someone to call the cops to check if you have a license. accidentally exposing your gun is a class a misdemeanor.

    from what i've read open carry deters criminals who would rather find an easier target. why attack someone with a gun when you can find someone not carrying a gun.

    yet, having a gun accidentally exposed is not the same as open carry. he may believe that you don't know that you exposed your gun.
     
  15. jeepmor

    jeepmor Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,827
    Location:
    Stumptown
    No, not intentionally.
     
  16. Tarvis

    Tarvis Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,178
    Location:
    Northern Pennsylvania
    Tepin, you reminded me of another point taught in my CCW class: If it's you vs. unarmed attacker and you are of a larger build, you'll have some explaining to do if you don't attempt to defend yourself with your fists before your gun. Someone has to be high or seriously impaired in the logic part of the brain if they think theyare going to disarm me when I have my weapon pointed at them. Also, the first thing you should do is run. A prosecuting attourney will emphasize the fact that you didn't attempt to flee before you shot someone.

    As far as the cops being called on me because someone doesn't understand my rights, be my guest. I enjoy talking to the police, some of the finest individuals around IMHO. rrruuunnn, is accidentally exposing your concealed weapon a federal crime, state, local? I haven't heard that before.

    Idea: carry open where legal, solves the problem before it starts :neener:
     
  17. rrruuunnn

    rrruuunnn Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Texas
  18. TimM

    TimM Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    659
    Location:
    Parker, CO
    That is not what it means in Denver. If you show your piece intentionally or unintentionally you can and probably will be charged with brandishing.
     
  19. tepin

    tepin Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    563
    Location:
    AZ
    Yep. I mentioned "retreat" three times in my post. Retreat is ALWAYS the best option regardless of what the law says.

    1. I would be reluctant to start brawling with a firearm on my hip
    2. You do not know the skills of your attacker
    3. You do not know if your attacker is armed or unarmed
    4. Good luck fighting and stopping someone on drugs or alcohol with bare hands
    5. You do not know if he has friends around ready to "help"

    Fighting is dangerous and can be life-threatening.

     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2008
  20. Hazwaste

    Hazwaste Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    274
    Location:
    Fort Bend County, Texas
    Nope

    There has never been a time, and I don't foresee a time when I'd purposely expose my concealed sidearm unless I intended to use it. It would be sort of like going from "I dare you" to "I triple-dog dare you" in one step. It's just not done.
     
  21. TexasSkyhawk

    TexasSkyhawk Internet SEAL

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    467
    Location:
    Texas
    Two thoughts/opinions about "intentionally" revealing/showing your previously concealed weapon in the situation you describe.

    1. When playing high stakes poker, why let the other player know what your hole card is?

    2. Things are not always as they seem. Early in my law enforcement career, I worked undercover in a federal biker task force working the one-percenters. Looked pretty rough--so much so that some of the elders at my church started asking me to sit in the very back of the sanctuary on Sunday mornings.

    Had a mild-looking man in south Florida do exactly what you describe while we were both in a late-night convenience store well after midnight. He was nervous as hell every time I looked at him or walked near him. Finally, he opened his polyester sport jacket open just enough to reveal a little J-frame.

    I smiled and reached inside my leather jacket, turned a pocket inside out and revealed my badge. Then me and the little fellow had a talk. At first he didn't want to believe that I was a special agent, but finally accepted the fact.

    At the time, Florida didn't have the CCL law that they have today, but I never had a problem with armed citizens. I told the little guy to never tip his hand. Told him that I was definitely surprised that he was carrying because he certainly did NOT look the type. Also told him that a bad guy might use that as justification to shoot him "in fear of their life."

    Also told him that a lot of other cops--especially the northern transplants that come south looking for LE work--would probably have arrested him on the spot.

    Rarely is it ever a good idea, in my opinion, to reveal your concealed weapon.

    Jeff
     
  22. Atticus

    Atticus Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,792
    Location:
    Ohio
    I agree with that, however, I don't see anything wrong with a subtle
    unbuttoning of a jacket, a hand in the pocket, and/or a pat to the body just to confirm that it is there (even if it isn't). I've seen a notable change in the mindset of questionable people when reaching back to fondle my gun-less right love handle.
     
  23. nwilliams

    nwilliams Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,475
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Regardless of the law I would prefer to keep my ccw just that a ccw.

    I could care less if someone catches a glimpse of my gun under my jacket if I'm walking around town or doing whatever. However if I felt threatened I wouldn't intentionally reveal I had a gun until forced into a situation where I had to draw and fire it. If I wanted to reveal that I carry a gun to avoid conflicts then I would just open carry, however I like that those around me don't know that I'm armed, even if they mean me harm.

    I don't carry to feel powerful or to use my gun as a power statement, I carry only to protect my life....and because I can;)
     
  24. Tarvis

    Tarvis Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,178
    Location:
    Northern Pennsylvania
    Can anyone site a situation where it is your only option (and legal) to intentionally reveal your CCW? Obvious one is someone running after you with a knife telling you he's gonna kill you; otherwise described as an immediate threat on your life, any other situations where your only option is to show 'em your ace in the hole?
     
  25. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Messages:
    8,953
    Location:
    Californicated Colorado
    I made, what I thought was, a good poll about this topic.
    I should ask a mod to move it to this forum, but that would take some work.

    Go ahead and vote in it anyway.

    Displaying Your Weapon

    ;)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice