interestin g items (2) in today's CATO Daily Dispatch

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and the idea that states can violate people's civil rights without Federal oversight is simply disgusting and has no place in modern law.
"The equality of the rights of citizens is a principle of republicanism. Every republican government is in duty bound to protect all its citizens in the enjoyment of this principle, if within its power. That duty was originally assumed by the States; and it still remains there. The only obligation resting upon the United States is to see that the States do not deny the right. " U S v. CRUIKSHANK, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)

This does NOT sound like the federal government is turning a blind eye to rights violations. They were simply enforcing the hierarchy that exist. The defendants should have been tried in a state court first. THEN, the matter can rise to the federal level.

From the Scott decision:

"Consequently, the special rights and immunities guarantied to citizens do not apply to them"

"Since the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, no State can by any subsequent law make a foreigner or any other description of persons citizens of the United States, nor entitle them to the rights and privileges secured to citizens by that instrument. "

Here are two instances where rights were specifically separated from privileges and immunities. Obviously, one can find language to support whatever position they desire. The fact is that the Scott decision was based on the concept of holding the Founding Fathers intent above all, including the rights of individuals. We don't do that anymore. Not because of the 14th, but because we realized that the founding fathers were men, not gods. Reason is our guide now, not the intent of the founding fathers.


The concept of the federal government being directly responsible for the protection of our rights would create a national police force. This was not the intention of the 14th amendment.
 
Graystar,

The USSC in Cruikshank wasn't saying that the defendants should have gone to state court first. They were saying they could NEVER be dragged into a Federal court. If there was a "state court first" requirement, then the state of Louisiana could deliberately fail to so prosecute them, and hence leave the murderers free forever.

Which is exactly what happened. Study the entire history of Southern lynchings. Murder became a state supported activity after the Cruikshank decision.

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There are "2805 [documented] victims of lynch mobs killed between 1882 and 1930 in ten southern states. Although mobs murdered almost 300 white men and women, the vast majority (almost 2,500) of lynch victims were African-American. Of these black victims, 94 percent died in the hands of white lynch mobs. The scale of this carnage means that, on the average, a black man, woman, or child was murdered nearly once a week, every week, between 1882 and 1930 by a hate-driven white mob" (ix).

Source: http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html
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Cruikshank caused this. Do you still support Cruikshank?

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17.jpg

Source: http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html - click on pictures. That's one of over eighty. That particular one is dated and documented: "The lynching of Dick Robinson and a man named Thompson. October 6, 1906, Pritchard Station, Alabama."

When you look through those pictures, understand that most were POSTCARDS. GODDAMNIT, THOSE PEOPLE IN THE LYNCH MOBS HAD SO LITTLE FEAR OF PROSECUTION, THEY SMILED FOR THE CAMERA KNOWING THE PICTURES WOULD BE SPREAD TO HELL AND GONE!!!
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Cruikshank caused this. Do you still support Cruikshank?

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CONSIDER THE FACTS.
During six weeks of the months of March and April just past, twelve colored men were lynched in Georgia, the reign of outlawry culminating in the torture and hanging of the colored preacher, Elijah Strickland, and the burning alive of Samuel Wilkes, alias Hose, Sunday, April 23, 1899.

The real purpose of these savage demonstrations is to teach the Negro that in the South he has no rights that the law will enforce. Samuel Hose was burned to teach the Negroes that no matter what a white man does to them, they must not resist. Hose, a servant, had killed Cranford, his employer. An example must be made. Ordinary punishment was deemed inadequate. This Negro must be burned alive. To make the burning a certainty the charge of outrage was invented, and added to the charge of murder. The daily press offered reward for the capture of Hose and then openly incited the people to burn him as soon as caught. The mob carried out the plan in every savage detail.

Of the twelve men lynched during that reign of unspeakable barbarism, only one was even charged with an assault upon a woman. Yet Southern apologists justify their savagery on the ground that Negroes are lynched only because of their crimes against women.

The Southern press champions burning men alive, and says, "Consider the facts." The colored people join issue and also say,, "Consider the fact." The colored people of Chicago employed a detective to go to Georgia, and his report in this pamphlet gives the facts. We give here the details of the lynching as they were reported in the Southern papers, then follows the report of the true facts as to the cause of the lynchings, as learned by the investigation. We submit all to the sober judgment of the Nation, confident that, in this cause, as well as all others, "Truth is mighty and will prevail."

IDA B. WELLS-BARNETT.
2939 Princeton Avenue, Chicago, June 20, 1899.

Source:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/murray:@field(FLD001+91898209+):mad:@@$REF$
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Cruikshank caused this. Do you still support Cruikshank?

I could go on like this for days. Hit google and do a search on the terms:

black history lynchings

Look, do you even understand that the state of Louisiana *approved* of the actions of Cruikshank and the other rioters? Do you realize that the Southern states fought black civil rights and black voting at every turn?

Quoting Graystar:

The concept of the federal government being directly responsible for the protection of our rights would create a national police force. This was not the intention of the 14th amendment.

The hell it wasn't! The North had just finished sending in HOW many million *troops* to the South? Jesus, they burned Atlanta to the ground. You think John Bingham would have balked over sending some cops down there?

Are you familiar with the Freedmen's Bureau act? In 1866, it created a team of Federal cops with police powers to protect black civil rights and safety in the south! That was the first "national police force", two years BEFORE the 14th.

Again, your ignorance of these times is just breathtaking.

Your two cites to Dred Scott only further illustrate how that court used terms like "special rights and immunities" and "privileges and immunities" and plain old "rights" interchangably. What matters is that all of these rights are what are protected for you as a US citizen. Read the chunk I quoted again, and the meaning of the term "privileges and immunities" is specifically defined to include the RKBA, a right to travel, right to free speech, right NOT to have special laws passed to strictly control you by race, etc.

You are ignoring obvious evidence of "language shift" regarding the phrase "privileges and immunities".
 
The USSC in Cruikshank wasn't saying that the defendants should have gone to state court first.
Yes they did, when they made it clear that this was a state issue, not a federal issue.
Do you still support Cruikshank?
Absolutely. Cruikshank didn't cause that image. The men standing there in the picture did. You're blaming the court for the actions of others. Are you taking lessons from the antis???

I will not abandon principles because of some emotional reactions to pictures. If the state was responsible for what happened then the victims should have taken the state to federal court. If the state was unwilling to prosecute those responsible, then again, the victims should have taken the state to federal court. That is the way it works. That is still the way it works.
 
The USSC *did* cause all of that and more, in the Cruikshank case. The states wouldn't halt the killings, and the first time the Feds tried to, the USSC shut that down.

The peak decade for the lynchings was the 1880s. Cruikshank was decided in 1876. Coincidence?

Fortunately, every aspect of Cruikshank has been junked, so if a state tried to open up new "killing fields", the Feds would stomp the crap out of 'em. However, the one element of Cruikshank still "alive" is the bit about states disarming anybody they want, pretty much at random, for any reason they want.

And you *support* that?

I can't figure you out. You live in a state that violates civil rights (arms and more) at a rate far greater than the Feds. So do I. But you want to make sure states like New York and California can trample your rights unopposed.

Anyways. You're wrong, and thank God the legal scholarship is going 100% the other way, the latest example being Akhil Reed Amar's 1998 book "A Bill Of Rights" and the legal journal articles that preceeded it on the subject of the 14th Amendment. He's one of a large group of very respected legal scholars, including Stephen Halbrook and Clayton Cramer, who are all saying the same thing about what the 14th Amendment is supposed to do.
 
Jim March:

What appears to be your legal scholorship goes far beyond me. While I too read some, not as much as I used to, reading legal material usually puts me to sleep.

In any event, re the 14th amendment, in general, it was my understanding that essentially it applied to the then, newly freed, former slaves, who were then citizens, perviously they hadn't been.

In the Southern States, "freed blacks", sometimes known, if memory serves as "14th amendment citizens" were being denied the rights of "other" citizens, essentially via state actions. It seemed that the 14th was supposed to correct this situation, meaning that it would enforce or make applicable to the states, rights guaranteed by The Constitution.

Do I have that right? As to earlier comment, to the effect that the 14th had been walked all over, you know more about that than I do.
 
Alan,

That's exactly right, except the effects were NOT supposed to be limited to blacks. Union sympathizers in the South were being discriminated against.

Let's look at the first paragraph of the 14th:

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Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
---

First, it's completely race-neutral. There's a reason for that: in addition to passing "black codes", most Southern states were passing laws specifically discriminating against anybody who hasn't been in that state a good while, effectively screwing visiting Northerners. And without actual legislation, southern cops and courts were screwing over anybody known as pro-Union.

And the LAST paragraph...well check it out, it's just one sentence:

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Section. 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
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And "Graystar" (is that a reference to Confederate gray?) wants us to believe the framers of the 14th didn't expect the FedGov to do anything about abuses of civil rights.

:rolleyes:
 
Alan, Graystar and others:

www.findlaw.com is pretty much THE premier online legal research/resource page on US law out there. It has no "ideological slant", it's used by lawyers of all sorts and political persuations, and represents the mainstream of current American thought.

Here's their page on the 14A:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/

They start out with the full text of the amendment, and then provide links to information and scholarship on each bit below.

As you'll see, there's a ton of links on the various implications of the Due Process, Equal Protection and other clauses...but there's just ONE on the "privileges and immunities clause" of the 14A's opening paragraph.

I strongly recommend y'all read that page on the P&I:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/02.html

As you'll see, the US Supreme Court in the 1873 Slaughterhouse cases simply decided that a piece of the Constitution simply should not be (the P&I clause) and simply wrote it out of the constitution where it's been largely crippled ever since.

Basically, it was an unfortunate twist of history that the first time the P&I clause came up at the USSC in Slaughterhouse, it was a "free trade issue" having nothing whatsoever to do with race. So they had an excuse to junk the P&I (still treason, but they did it). BUT the sort of state law the framers of the 14th were really worried about were *racist* laws (and actions) and all of those (especially state laws and actions related to black disarmament) damned well should have been reviewed and stomped on by the court.

Instead, the USSC basically spent the whole time between 1872 and 1905 saying "racist laws? What racist laws? Besides, they're only *******!" :scrutiny:

You think I'm kidding? I'm damned well not! Check THIS freakshow of a case out:

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/170/213.html - by 1898, a discretionary VOTING permit law had barred 180,000 blacks and about 5 whites from voting in Mississippi. According to the USSC, this was just fine and dandy :eek:.

Now, if they had ONLY gutted the P&I clause of the 14th, it would be perhaps tolerable. But they didn't stop there. They gutted the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th in other decisions between 1873 and 1905ish, all for racist reasons. Hell, even that wasn't the end of it - they obliterated the 15th Amendment too (voting rights for blacks, see the Williams 1898 case cited above). All of those have been put back together again (more or less, there's still problems with equal protection!) but the P&I remains "severely damaged goods".

What we got instead of the P&I clause is "selective incorporation of the BoR via the 14A due process clause". What that means is, throughout the 20th Century, the USSC has heard cases in which states have violated civil rights. As the USSC has agreed to hear such cases, they have "approved of" individual rights to apply to the states, saying that allowing a state to violate, say, right to free speech and assembly, would deprive people of due process under law.

(Free speech and assembly were I believe the first two rights found "basic and important enough" to be so incorporated against the states.)

Well...that's true, if a state arrests you for free speech, it DOES screw with your due process rights.

But this weird bent game meant the court could hand-pick which civil rights it likes at any given time. So far, they have not so blessed the 2nd Amendment, and the right to a grand jury for major crime indictment. Oh, and the THIRD amendment but since keeping troops in people's guest bedrooms isn't popular...:rolleyes:.

The USSC literally launched a coup against us...they disgarded a piece of the Constitution, and they weren't subtle about it.
 
Jim March:

I'm familiar, to some extent, with findlaw, and have looked at a couple of things therein, for instance Hanyes v. U.S., re gun resigtration.

Otherwise, with reference to USSC and history, I'm given to remember, possibly a poor application, the following.

A tourist from Iowa, something of an arch. buff is seen, standing on the corner of a broad blv'd. in D.C., looking somewhat lost/confused. A D.C. cop notices a citizen, seemingly in distress of some sort, and offers aid. He asks if the tourist is having a problem. Our tourist answers no, but indicates that he is corious about something. The police officer asks curious as to what. The tourist indicates his desire to know which side of the street the State Dept. Building is on, though what he actually says is as follows. "Which side is The State Dept. on"?. The police officer tips his uniform cap back on his head, looks thoughtful for a moment, and replies, "they are on our side, I think". Might this apply to at least some of the desicions that have come out of USSC?
 
Jim,

I've used findlaw for years and have already read the link you provided, thanks.

Cruikshank states:
The right there specified is that of 'bearing arms for a lawful purpose.' This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.
Yet all the antis love to quote only part of it:

The right there specified is that of 'bearing arms for a lawful purpose.' This is not a right granted by the Constitution.
Cruikshank is not a bad decision. However, when you take it out of context it can appear to be bad. What you are referring to is the abuse of a Supreme Court decision. The decision itself does not support any of the things you claim it does.

We read Miller and see that it support an individual right. Gun control advocates read it and see that it supports only a state right (something which doesn't even exist.) It's the same thing.
 
Graystar: you're wrong. The Cruikshank decision said that civil rights violations committed by state agents could not be stopped by the Feds.

Got that? All the fancy talk is fine, but where the rubber hits the road, mass slaughter led by state government officials could not be punished.

The slaughter continued for almost a hundred years.

You cannot POSSIBLY be in favor of that.
 
The slaughter continued for almost a hundred years.
You cannot POSSIBLY be in favor of that.
No, I'm not in favor of the slaughter of innocent people. However, that is no reason to fault the Supreme Court when it was the lawyers for the victims that screwed up.

The lawyers for the victims screwed up in three ways.

1. They made their charges against the men that committed the crimes, instead of the State for allowing the crimes.

2. In their charges, they didn't specify the acts committed.

3. In their charges, they didn't specify the rights or privileges that were violated.

So they were going to lose the appeal even if the Supreme Court did decided that the United States can prosecute the individuals.

So don't blame the Supreme Court for the actions of bad lawyers. The Supreme Court can only work with what they are given. The victims' lawyers gave the Court a crappy case, and a crappy decision is what they got in return.
 
The lawyers were *Federal* attorneys, not "lawyers for the victims".

They accused Cruikshank and company of very specific crimes:

* Depriving the victims of their 2nd Amendment rights (for the specific purpose of follow-up assaults).

* Depriving the victims of their 1st Amendment rights to peaceful assembly (by assaulting them as they stood outside of the courthouse to vote).

* Depriving the victims of their 15th Amendment right to vote (via the same assaults).

They were also charged with conspiracy on all of the above actions. Which granted, is slightly questionable as "extra charges" but...the core three charges above were rock solid.

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Now let's turn it around. HOW SHOULD THE COLFAX ATTACKS HAVE BEEN PROSECUTED? What were the alternatives?

I can see absolutely none, other than what the Feds tried. What actually happened was, once the Cruikshank case failed at the USSC, the Feds gave up trying to control racial murders in the south.

So what's your solution?
 
I've read them very carefully. I've also read many other decisions of that period that supported racism in various forms, esp. Williams (1898).

Taken alone, reading Cruikshank shows what sure as hell looks like racism. Reading it as part of a pattern of rotten decisions during that era proves it was racist.
 
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