Interesting .308 Win vs. 6.5 Creedmore

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Another pet peeve in this whole 308 vs 6.5 debate is the use of outdated drag models. The tables in the OP's original article are erroneous. They use a G7 ballstic coefficient but the ELD bullet does not fit the G7 model very well hence the reason Hornady has published a chart on their website with three different velocity ranges for each of the ELD bullets.

Much ado about nothing - a guy can complain about calculated data all they want, but there’s no arguing the 308win does not keep up with the 6.5 creed at range. Regardless of the suitability of a G1 or G7 ballistic profile, we’re not just taking calculators to the range in our rifle cases. Guys do it every single weekend. The 308win has more drop than the 6.5 creed.

Equally, BC has always been and will always be dependent upon velocity. Sierra has been publishing velocity dependent BC ranges for decades. It’s nothing new, and it certainly wasn’t Hornady’s idea. Most guys shooting at top levels will know how twist rate affects their BC, and will true it in their calculator. For example, the 105’s I’m shooting should have a .275 G7, but that’s in a 1:7, whereas my 1:8 trues up to a .264. I’m within a 10th mil out to 1300 using my measured muzzle velocity, no truing. Same deal with the 108 ELD, I should be between .275 G7 at 2900fps, but it trued out for me about .267 in my 1:8”.
 
Much ado about nothing - a guy can complain about calculated data all they want, but there’s no arguing the 308win does not keep up with the 6.5 creed at range. Regardless of the suitability of a G1 or G7 ballistic profile, we’re not just taking calculators to the range in our rifle cases. Guys do it every single weekend. The 308win has more drop than the 6.5 creed.

Equally, BC has always been and will always be dependent upon velocity. Sierra has been publishing velocity dependent BC ranges for decades. It’s nothing new, and it certainly wasn’t Hornady’s idea. Most guys shooting at top levels will know how twist rate affects their BC, and will true it in their calculator. For example, the 105’s I’m shooting should have a .275 G7, but that’s in a 1:7, whereas my 1:8 trues up to a .264. I’m within a 10th mil out to 1300 using my measured muzzle velocity, no truing. Same deal with the 108 ELD, I should be between .275 G7 at 2900fps, but it trued out for me about .267 in my 1:8”.

I did not claim 308 was better, simply pointing out the poor math done (my pet peeve) in the OP's article (and other places) the differences between the two cartridges are smaller than reported in many of these internet articles because they are not doing the ballistics correctly. Part of that is because current ballistic models do not fit these new bullets well and no one bothers to do the piece-wise ballistics for the internet articles.

By definition BC should be a constant for a bullet over it entire velocity profile if the drag model is done correctly for that bullet's form. That was why ballistic coefficient was created in the first place; to scale the Reynolds number dependency of the Coefficient of Drag for a given bullet shape with one number the Ballistic Coefficient. If you have to report a velocity dependent BC's then you are using a drag model that does not fit. In this day and age of radars and computers we should have new ballistic models or even better just publish the Coefficient of Drag tables for each individual bullet for direct input into ballistic calculators and dispense with BC completely. It's not like we are computationally or data limited like we where when these models were created.
 
The 6.5 Creed is a better long range cartridge, this thread summarized. It was designed for this.

For all practical purposes it's a coin flip. 6.5 creed is cool, 308win is boring.

Recoil? My 308 shoots 125g Accubond's pretty nicely. Plenty effective inside 300 yards, hell I can't even see 100 yards in my woods.
 
I think that used to be the case, but i think now the civilian shooters are more demanding in terms of performance than the Military. Compare a modern commercial .308 to anything the military is using (that im aware of, again not my area of expertise) and balistically the civi round will out perform the military one

I am of the opinion that civilian rounds are more one dimensional than well developed military rounds. I do not consider the 5.56 a well developed round, it is a wild cat developed by a for profit Gun writer, and it has problems, which I have gone into detail elsewhere. Why isn’t the army using aluminum cases? The 7.62 was a well developed round, at the time, it pushed the straight case envelope and was straighter than the average military round of the era. Case taper is good for feed and extraction, a tapered round will feed better, is more forgiving to slop in the tolerances. Compare pouring liquids, or grains in a bottle. You use a funnel with a cone shape. A straight taper cylinder does not work well as a funnel. In so far as extraction, straight cases drag. When case walls relax at a diagonal there is less drag on extraction than with straight case walls. The 5.56 is rather straight, it drags, and that is another source of unreliability as failures to eject are common, especially with steel case ammunition. Square ended cartridges create feeding issues and the best feeding rounds have a lot of slope on their shoulders. Good military rounds are not 65,000 psia round, the best ones work in the upper 30's to lower 40's, because high pressure causes extraction problems when the weapon, or the round, gets hot.

This Chinese round looks well designed, lots of case taper, thick rim, and operational pressures around 40,000 psia.

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The post WW2 history of civilian rounds has been a history of maximum pressures and maximum velocity. Functional issues such as feed and extraction are hardly considered. What the market wants is horsepower! There is no replacement for displacement ! Shooters wanted recoil, muzzle blast, awesome kinetic energy numbers at distance.

You just had to hit the animal, somewhere, anywhere, to kill it, the wallop will do the rest!

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And, without the maximum horsepower at range, you were going to be cheated

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Today's civilian bolt rifles come with these three round, or four round magazines in which the top is pyramidal in shape, to place the straight case round directly in line with the chamber. There are probably some bolt rifles with a two round magazine capacity. My stripper clip reloaded NRA target rifles carried five in the integral magazine. For current rounds and rifles, many ten round box magazines are single stack and stick out like a keel on a boat. Similarly, they aground on the shoals. I shot decades of NRA highpower and I can attest that a rifle that jams in the rapids will ruin your score. It used to be that Marksman shot a lot of rounds out of the magazine, and often shot rounds against time. So reliability in feed and extraction was appreciated. But, the horsepower uber allies trend buried those considerations. Seldom do people shoot from the magazine, or rapidly from the magazine, and they seldom shoot enough to determine how reliable their weapon is, in terms of feed and extraction. A 264 Win Mag barrel is shot out in 700 to 800 rounds, one misfeed is 800 rounds is probably OK. One misfire every 800 rounds in a military weapon will get someone killed.

I believe with the decline in the hunting population, the market is moving away from magnumitis for magnumitis's sake, but not high pressure for high pressure's sake. The current trend is maximizing ballistic performance at miles, furlongs, planetary distances! Wahoo!

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I don't have any of the current ballistic performance for ballistic performance sake cartridges, don't know how they are in terms of function reliability, but, I don't think the market really cares.
 
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As we continually debate the 6.5CR vs. .308 superiority, some munitions engineer is out there working out something like necking down a .338LM to 6.75mm for factory loads, overbore be darned.

Over the next 20yrs, I'll hopefully be running my .308s just fine. I'll maybe even come around to the 6.5CR over the Swede.
But one thing's for sure: We'll be whipping out these ballistics debates all over again when a much hyped 6.75 Thunderclap (or insert any other predicted greatness or monstrosity here) supposedly leaves both our .308s AND 6.5s in the dirt.

And knowing military procurement, they probably still won't even be close to replacing the 7.62 or 5.56 across the entire NATO spectrum, regardless of whichever better rounds they finally settle on.
 
I like the .308

One of the reasons is it’s very easy to tune. Another reason is out to 600 yards it’s competitive with everything else if you load the high BC bullets and keep velocities on the higher side.

My daughter (not an experienced competition shooter) shot this 25 rounds at 600 yards with a .308 and beat everyone that day, including me with my 6mm BR, all the other F Open guys and all the crusty old sling shooters

Thats a 6” 10 ring and the shot high and right was her first sighter

37E7F5FF-B147-4257-9646-AA6AD73C84F2.jpg

Now, if she could do better than that with a “creed!” please don’t let her know.

PS, I'll also add that this rifle has right at 3,000 rounds down the barrel with no sign of drop off in accuracy
 
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I personally don’t really care if surplus ammo is available for any cartridge I own.
A lot of folks who want to stretch a meager shooting budget do, which is why surplus gins and ammo have always been popular with the older and mid range aged crowds. The young kids didn't really experience surplus in large cheap quantities. I have had a lot of cheap fun shooting surplus .308 over the last 3 or 4 decades. Not everyone has a large budget. :)
 
I like the .308

One of the reasons is it’s very easy to tune. Another reason is out to 600 yards it’s competitive with everything else if you load the high BC bullets and keep velocities on the higher side.

My daughter (not an experienced competition shooter) shot this 25 rounds at 600 yards with a .308 and beat everyone that day, including me with my 6mm BR, all the other F Open guys and all the crusty old sling shooters

Thats a 6” 10 ring and the shot high and right was her first sighter

View attachment 804843

Now, if she could do better than that with a “creed!” please don’t let her know.

PS, I'll also add that this rifle has right at 3,000 rounds down the barrel with no sign of drop off in accuracy
I love it. A young lady that can shoot is a real treat to watch. They seem to get more joy out of shooting well than us guys do for some reason. Good on her (and you!)
 
Even for deer hunting, the heavy 30’s have been losing air time for a long time. Misguided newbies buy a lot of 308wins, but all-too-often their second rifle comes quickly, in something NOT 308.

So, now the 308 isn't even a good deer rifle, chosen only by misguided newbies...Huh...??? While the 308 is far from being the only good choice in deer rifle cartridges today, it is nevertheless still a good choice. I think most knowledgeable and experienced hunters would agree with this view...

Anyone who knows a thing or two about cartridges but doesn’t see the advantages of the 6.5 creed - or a dozen similar cartridges - over the 308win is choosing to be ignorant. Some folks are still convinced the world is flat.

I think there is a big difference between recognizing the advantages of the 6.5 CM as a long range target cartridge and it's performance and presumed superiority over the 308 as a hunting cartridge. The fact is that the 308 will do anything that the 6.5CM will do out to at least 400 yards. At shorter ranges the 308 actually has a distinct advantage over the 6.5 CM. This short range advantage is also mentioned in the Primary Arms article. Now, I think that most experienced hunters will also agree that far more game is shot at 100 or less than is successfully shot at more than 400 yards so hunters need to seriously consider whether the extreme long range (by hunting standards) advantage the 6.5 CM enjoys over the 308 is worth the trade off in shorter range performance.. Either way, the idea that the 6.5CM and similar cartridges have made the 308 obsolete or a poor choice as a hunting cartridge is blatantly false...

"6.5 Creedmoor trades some bullet weight for increased velocity, resulting in a kinetic energy disadvantage versus 308 Win at ranges under 400 yards. The difference tilts significantly in .308 Win’s favor up close—for hunting under 100 yards, it brings much better potential for a one-shot takedown on large game. After 400 yards the greater efficiency of the 6.5mm bullet allows it to retain energy better than .308 Win, resulting in greater terminal performance. For long distance hunting applications with an intended engagement range beyond 500 yards, 6.5 CM is clearly superior. The limitations of hunting ethics come into play as range increases, as the moral hunter knows to only take shots that will confidently result in a quick and humane kill. "
-- excerpt from Primary Arms article.
 
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While the 308 is far from being the only good choice in deer rifle cartridges today, it is nevertheless still a good choice.

This is largely where our disagreement will forever lie.

I didn’t believe the 308win was a good deer cartridge over 25yrs ago, and still don’t. It works to kill deer, just like an F150 works for some guys who commute from their suburb home to their downtown office, but it’s not what I’d consider to be good for the application. It’s far more than a guy needs for such a menial task, and if they up the ante with larger game, the niche filled by the 308win fills is very narrow - not so dissimilar than upping the ante and over-loading an F-150. The more deer I kill - clearing 200 so far - the more I realize all of these 30’s and magnums don’t make sense for the task.

But hey, guys love them. 308’s and F-150’s both.
 
This is largely where our disagreement will forever lie.

I didn’t believe the 308win was a good deer cartridge over 25yrs ago, and still don’t. It works to kill deer, just like an F150 works for some guys who commute from their suburb home to their downtown office, but it’s not what I’d consider to be good for the application. It’s far more than a guy needs for such a menial task, and if they up the ante with larger game, the niche filled by the 308win fills is very narrow - not so dissimilar than upping the ante and over-loading an F-150. The more deer I kill - clearing 200 so far - the more I realize all of these 30’s and magnums don’t make sense for the task.

But hey, guys love them. 308’s and F-150’s both.

Are you claiming "overkill"? I am fond of hunting deer with what most hunters would consider a minimal cartridge (if not under their opinion of minimal) but I would never be critical of someone hunting deer with a cartridge bigger/more-powerful/heavier than necessary.
 
A lot of folks who want to stretch a meager shooting budget do, which is why surplus gins and ammo have always been popular with the older and mid range aged crowds. The young kids didn't really experience surplus in large cheap quantities. I have had a lot of cheap fun shooting surplus .308 over the last 3 or 4 decades. Not everyone has a large budget. :)

I fall into that category. I'm going to shoot what's cheap. I don't own anything but a 5.56 x 45. I would like to have something bigger but for now that will have to do. In researching the economics of 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and 7.62, it seems that the 7.62 (308) is the most economical to shoot. I think this is because it's the most popular of the 4 bullet calibers listed. I'm sure the 6.5 CM is a much better cartridge in terms of long range but 500 yds is long enough for me. For me it's about how much I can shoot, not how far I can shoot.

Everyone needs to fit their cartridge to their desired use. I can't believe anyone who hunts deer or shoots precision to proclaim the 308 isn't a good deer cartridge or a good precision cartridge. That's just plain nuts. If that were true I think a company like Ruger would know that. Instead they produce a but load of rifles chambered in 308, including a precision rifle. So does Tikka and a few other mfg's.

It appears that these rifle mfg's have it all wrong. It appears that lots of deer hunters have it all wrong also. Oh well, maybe someday the military and everyone else will wake up to the fact that the 308 is obsolete and really never was a good cartridge.;)
 
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I agree that the 6.5 CM is superior for ranges over 500 yards. However I am a hunter. I don't think it is real ethical to shoot game over 400 yards. there for the superior energy and mass under that range make the .308 a superior hunting cartridge. I personally split the difference and shoot a 7-08. I am not a bandwagon person so I am not going to argue that one cartridge is better than another, it is just another choice and most people and most game won't be able to tell much difference.
 
I fall in the either or crowd. I have 2 .308s and one 6.5. I really, really like the 6.5 but have no problem with the .308s. Last year I hunted with the RPR in 6.5. This year will be mostly Larue AR10. It's all good. 6.5 is probably better but .308 is just fine in my book.

Mark
 
I like the .308

One of the reasons is it’s very easy to tune. Another reason is out to 600 yards it’s competitive with everything else if you load the high BC bullets and keep velocities on the higher side.

My daughter (not an experienced competition shooter) shot this 25 rounds at 600 yards with a .308 and beat everyone that day, including me with my 6mm BR, all the other F Open guys and all the crusty old sling shooters

Thats a 6” 10 ring and the shot high and right was her first sighter

View attachment 804843

Now, if she could do better than that with a “creed!” please don’t let her know.

PS, I'll also add that this rifle has right at 3,000 rounds down the barrel with no sign of drop off in accuracy


Nice shooting!
 
This is largely where our disagreement will forever lie.

I didn’t believe the 308win was a good deer cartridge over 25yrs ago, and still don’t. It works to kill deer, just like an F150 works for some guys who commute from their suburb home to their downtown office, but it’s not what I’d consider to be good for the application. It’s far more than a guy needs for such a menial task, and if they up the ante with larger game, the niche filled by the 308win fills is very narrow - not so dissimilar than upping the ante and over-loading an F-150. The more deer I kill - clearing 200 so far - the more I realize all of these 30’s and magnums don’t make sense for the task.

But hey, guys love them. 308’s and F-150’s both.

That's just an odd statement, that and the blanket claim that most any .30 is too much for deer hunting. Like your pickup truck analogy, sometimes the pickup is empty, sometimes it's full, it just depends on the work load at hand... and the same goes for the .30's. I don't own 5 vehicles so I can choose the right one for my particular task today, I own a 3/4 ton pickup because I need the utility and versatility it offers on any given day. Like a good pickup, the .30's are probably the MOST versatile bullet/cartridge combo extant, even more so if you handload, and there is nothing wrong with showing up for a hunt with a little margin of error, not the absolute minimum you might need. Luck favors the prepared.
 
"By definition BC should be a constant for a bullet over it entire velocity profile if the drag model is done correctly for that bullet's form. That was why ballistic coefficient was created in the first place; to scale the Reynolds number dependency of the Coefficient of Drag for a given bullet shape with one number the Ballistic Coefficient. If you have to report a velocity dependent BC's then you are using a drag model that does not fit. "

Yes, BC must be an independent variable; not interdependent upon velocity itself; otherwise you cannot compare apples to apples without unduly complicated calculations. Had no idea bullet makers were fudging their BCs with higher-vel cartridges. Thank you.
 
It’s a chicken and egg problem - the only way we can really have a constant BC is if we develop a drag model based on the actual bullet itself, not a representative model. But in doing so, we’d have a perfected ballistic profile, and wouldn’t need the model. So as long as we use models to predict performance, we’ll be stuck with gaps where the BC is a dependent variable.

The good news, what we have works pretty well, and adapting per range isn’t so difficult.
 
Wow...another reincarnation of the 1950's .270 vs .30-06 debates. As long as it's civil, it's always fun to have an opinion, and hear other opinions, on various guns/calibers, etc. :)
 
It’s a chicken and egg problem - the only way we can really have a constant BC is if we develop a drag model based on the actual bullet itself, not a representative model. But in doing so, we’d have a perfected ballistic profile, and wouldn’t need the model. So as long as we use models to predict performance, we’ll be stuck with gaps where the BC is a dependent variable.

The good news, what we have works pretty well, and adapting per range isn’t so difficult.

It does not have to be based directly on the particular bullet to get a constant BC. To get a constant BC the bullet you are going to be shooting and G-model bullet should ideally would be a perfect scaling of each other. That was how BC was intended to be used. The closer you are to an exact scaling of the G-model bullet the better the drag model will work. But many of these newer VLD (Very Low Drag) bullets are a caliber or more longer than the G7 model bullet. Most of these VLD bullets are using a secant or hybrid secant-tangent ogive and the G7 uses a tangent ogive. The G7 model use a .6 caliber long 7.5 degree boat-tail I believe that is also different in many of these VLD bullets. It does not seem unreasonable to create a new G-model bullet that more closely matches the features of these newer VLD bullets.

But again in this day and age of radars and pocket computers we really could simply have drag coefficient tables generated for each bullet and dispense with BC all together. Slap the table in the form of a QR-code right on the side of the box of bullets with all the data you need for direct scan right into your favorite ballistics program that is on your phone or tablet.

I realize shoe-horning these new bullets into the G1/G7 model with multiple BCs for various velocity ranges and piece-wise interpolating the ballistic tables works just fine but it sort feels like using a adjustable wrench as a hammer. :D

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The problem with a QR code databank is the same problem with any factory data - it might not fit your particular rifle. I’m running over 10thou lower BC on Berger Hybrids because I run a slower twist. I know guys who tune their BC’s differently depending whether they have cut or button rifled barrels even.

So the easiest answer is to go shoot.
 
"It’s a chicken and egg problem - the only way we can really have a constant BC is if we develop a drag model based on the actual bullet itself, not a representative model. But in doing so, we’d have a perfected ballistic profile, and wouldn’t need the model."

OK, but couldn't you "ceteris paribus" this issue away by testing all bullets at the same velocity? Just pick one and stick with it - say, 2800 fps.
 
Doesn’t do much good a 6.5 Grendel bullet which can’t be made to reach 2800, or a 7 Rum bullet which will top 3,000fps. You’d be able to compare bullets by reducing variables, but to what end?

Just
Go
Shoot.
 
You do realize there is an Army solicitation currently in search for a 6.5 round to replace the 308, right?
That is pretty cool , if its true. Do you have a link? I am interested in reading up on it more. Anything that gets selected by the military usually skyrockets in popularity here on the civie side and that opens up the market for us. The 6.5 Creedmoor is a really cool round with alot of potential.
 
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