AzBuckfever
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Better be careful with all the comments and stats of 22s killing people, pretty soon the attention will be taken off the real killers like "Assault Weapons" and 22s will be banned **lol**
Interesting comment from Sherrif's deputy
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Kernel
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I’m calling BS. “Bouncing around” inside a body is an Urban Myth. A tall tale told and retold by Hollywood, gun store clerks, guys-who-heard-it-from-a-guy, law enforcement officers, and medical personnel who should know better.
As a farm kid growing up in a time before the internet I had ample opportunity to shoot all manner of animals, vegetables, and inanimate objects with the .22 Long Rifle cartridge. Based on thousands of observations, not once did I see evidence that a .22 bullet had “bounced around” inside a body.
In fact, in every case, the bullet ALWAYS traveled in a path very closely approximating a straight line until it came to rest. When encountering a solid object the bullet would either stop on impact, penetrate the object, or careen at a slight angle and continue to travel in a straight line.
Not saying bullets don’t ricochet, follow a bone, or potentially bounce back, under certain rare and frequently predictable circumstances. Furthermore, declaring the performance of a .22 LR superior to a .357 Magnum is laughable.
As a farm kid growing up in a time before the internet I had ample opportunity to shoot all manner of animals, vegetables, and inanimate objects with the .22 Long Rifle cartridge. Based on thousands of observations, not once did I see evidence that a .22 bullet had “bounced around” inside a body.
In fact, in every case, the bullet ALWAYS traveled in a path very closely approximating a straight line until it came to rest. When encountering a solid object the bullet would either stop on impact, penetrate the object, or careen at a slight angle and continue to travel in a straight line.
Not saying bullets don’t ricochet, follow a bone, or potentially bounce back, under certain rare and frequently predictable circumstances. Furthermore, declaring the performance of a .22 LR superior to a .357 Magnum is laughable.
rugerman07
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A .22 pistol or rifle may not be the best choice for a personal defense situation. But, I am a firm believer that anything that shoots is better than having nothing at all to defend yourself with.
mljdeckard
Member
Ask that deputy if he is willing to drop his issue sidearm for a .22 pistol.
nerd-with-a-gun
Member
I used to work in an Emergency Department in a fairly big hospital. We got in a guy who had shot himself in the head with a .22 and indeed the bullet had bounced around in his head doing extensive damage to his brain. He actually lived for about an hour after he arrived at the ER, but it was only autonomous brain function. He continued to breathe and his heart beat for that full hour, but the cognitive functions of his brain were long gone.
KBintheSLC
Member
This highlights the difference between killing power and stopping power. The .22 has plenty of killing power, but lacks a bit in making rapid stops. Nonetheless, a .22 in your pocket beats the .44 in your safe.
Ditto... if it had that much energy, it would merely exit.
Ditto... if it had that much energy, it would merely exit.
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ozarkgunner
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I've heard something like this before. Also, that it would be better to take a larger caliber to the head than a 22, because a larger caliber will enter and exit, where as the 22 enters and "bounces around" whole or in fragments.
trickyasafox
Member
I wonder if its more a function of the ultra soft swaged bullets often found in 22s. Often gun forums talk about expansion of hollowpoints and such, but soft swaged lead never fails to deform, no matter the medium.
I'd also bet its easier to get multiple hits with a 22. I'd be interested to see what percentage of 22 lr deaths had either a head shot or multiple torso hits.
I'd also bet its easier to get multiple hits with a 22. I'd be interested to see what percentage of 22 lr deaths had either a head shot or multiple torso hits.
SteelyNirvana
Member
My dad told me once as a kid "If a person is shot in the head with a .22 it will either kill them instantly or bounce around and make them a vegetable the rest of their life" Years later, I had a friends uncle who took his own life from a single shot with a 4" .22 revolver.
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mcdonl
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Bouncing around is a stretch, but a projectile can hit bone and ricochet... and it does not take much energy to cause damage to a solid organ with a rich blood supply.
Let's try not to use the term "bouncing around". Saying stuff like that grows into the infamous ".22 or .223 is so DEADLY because it'll enter your shoulder and end up in your leg" bull****.
I had to give a 5 minute explanation on that, the truths about the early AR-15s/M-16s in Vietnam, etc in one of our history classes the other day.
I'll also tell you the current or former military personnel in the classes are the worst about spreading/keeping alive the myths such "You can't shoot someone with a .50 cal, you aim for their belt buckle", etc.
I had to give a 5 minute explanation on that, the truths about the early AR-15s/M-16s in Vietnam, etc in one of our history classes the other day.
I'll also tell you the current or former military personnel in the classes are the worst about spreading/keeping alive the myths such "You can't shoot someone with a .50 cal, you aim for their belt buckle", etc.
Kernel
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Nerd, unless you did the autopsy yourself, detailing the track of the bullet, back-and-forth inside the subject’s head, you are just a guy-who-heard-it-from-a-guy.
It sounds like something we’ve all heard it before. It’s got that veneer of credibility. But it’s BS, and you’re perpetuating the myth.
billybobjoe
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A little coon was sitting in a garbage can which was half full of water on a hot day. I shot him in the head and the 22 went through the can at a right angle. Maybe the bullet hit the jaw bone?
toivo
Member
I think the "bouncing around" mythology comes from the fact that the .22 round often doesn't have enough energy to exit, and comes to rest somewhere inside the body of the victim. It may have been deflected by bone and ended up somewhere unexpected, but that idea that it ricochets around in there like a lead pinball just doesn't make sense. Contributing to the myth might be the fact that in many of these shootings, more than one round was fired. Sometimes a lot more than one round.
There must be hundreds if not thousands of these "stopping vs. killing" arguments in reference to the .22LR bouncing around the Internet by now. I'm going to guess that the reason that so many fatalities are caused by .22LR is, as smarter people than me have observed, that there are so many .22s out there. It is the ultimate weapon of opportunity. I don't know about you, but I know lots of people who I wouldn't exactly call "gun people" who have a .22 rifle hanging around the house somewhere, gathering dust and waiting to be stolen.
I totally agree that .22 is not a very good self-defense caliber. But people exaggerate in the other direction too. How many times have you heard the old line "If you shoot someone with a .22, you'll just make them mad and they'll take your gun and stick it up your ..." etc. Aileen Wuornos murdered seven men with a single-action .22 revolver. Not one of them managed to stick it up her ... etc. But again, that's murder, not self-defense; she had the drop on her victims, and AFAIK none of them was armed.
There must be hundreds if not thousands of these "stopping vs. killing" arguments in reference to the .22LR bouncing around the Internet by now. I'm going to guess that the reason that so many fatalities are caused by .22LR is, as smarter people than me have observed, that there are so many .22s out there. It is the ultimate weapon of opportunity. I don't know about you, but I know lots of people who I wouldn't exactly call "gun people" who have a .22 rifle hanging around the house somewhere, gathering dust and waiting to be stolen.
I totally agree that .22 is not a very good self-defense caliber. But people exaggerate in the other direction too. How many times have you heard the old line "If you shoot someone with a .22, you'll just make them mad and they'll take your gun and stick it up your ..." etc. Aileen Wuornos murdered seven men with a single-action .22 revolver. Not one of them managed to stick it up her ... etc. But again, that's murder, not self-defense; she had the drop on her victims, and AFAIK none of them was armed.
AzBuckfever
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I agree with the term "bouncing" around in being a myth or exageration. I think fragmented and/or deflected would be a better term 
LiveLife
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I wonder how many "targets" been "neutralized" by silenced 22LR pistols?
Interesting that this topic came up today. I had filled up a "Milkbone" box with sand (6 inches thick) to shoot into to see if I could tell how much sand it took to stop a .22lr, .380 and a 9mm bullet. Didn't get enough info to tell much about the amount of sand needed, but when I filtered the sand and retrieved the bullets, the .380 and 9mm were intact and non deformed but the .22lr copper jacked round nose bullets had deformed into perfect little mushrooms slightly bigger in diameter than the .380 or 9mm. I can see where this could do more damage than one would expect.
grumpycoconut
Member
As a young EMT in the late 80s I transported a guy from a small hospital to the local trauma center. He'd been sitting in his car minding his own business when someone shot him in the head from near contact distance. You could see the powder stipling around the entry wound. I got to see the x-rays and you could follow the wound track from the entry wound just in front of his left ear to a spot about 4 inches inboard. The guy's chief complaint was a stiff neck. Very pleasent guy to chat with.
C-grunt
Member
As a LEO for a big city I have seen a few .22 wounds.
Had a drug deal gone bad where one of the guys was shot with a .22. Entered ter bridge of his nose between his eyes and exited just in front of his left ear, destroying the back of his left eye. It then carved a nice clean half pipe out of the top of his left shoulder. he lived but almost bled to death.
Had a lady commit suicide by placing a H&R revolver against her chest and firing. Pretty much dead when she hit the ground. I showed up maybe 3 minutes after it happened and she had no pulse when I started CPR.
Had a guy accidentaly shoot his girlfriend in the head with a Lorcin. Bullet entered her upper jaw under her nose. Then travelled through her head and lodged in her upper spine. Luckily it didnt hit the spinal cord. She also almost died.
As far as .22s being used more by criminals and non gun people, I believe it. I remember when I was in FTO (field training) my trainer and I responded to a found gun call. A guy found a RG .22 in his front yard while mowing. When we emptied the gun, each chamber had a different kind of .22 in it! The criminals couldnt even scrounge together 6 of the same kind of .22.
Those are the only .22 stories I can think of.
Had a drug deal gone bad where one of the guys was shot with a .22. Entered ter bridge of his nose between his eyes and exited just in front of his left ear, destroying the back of his left eye. It then carved a nice clean half pipe out of the top of his left shoulder. he lived but almost bled to death.
Had a lady commit suicide by placing a H&R revolver against her chest and firing. Pretty much dead when she hit the ground. I showed up maybe 3 minutes after it happened and she had no pulse when I started CPR.
Had a guy accidentaly shoot his girlfriend in the head with a Lorcin. Bullet entered her upper jaw under her nose. Then travelled through her head and lodged in her upper spine. Luckily it didnt hit the spinal cord. She also almost died.
As far as .22s being used more by criminals and non gun people, I believe it. I remember when I was in FTO (field training) my trainer and I responded to a found gun call. A guy found a RG .22 in his front yard while mowing. When we emptied the gun, each chamber had a different kind of .22 in it! The criminals couldnt even scrounge together 6 of the same kind of .22.
Those are the only .22 stories I can think of.
SMMAssociates
Member
Just IMHO, but I don't find 'em all that reliable.... Misfires, etc.... My preference starts with a "4" , although I will admit to owning some 9mm and .380 guns....
Regards,
, although I will admit to owning some 9mm and .380 guns....Regards,
Officers'Wife
Member
Any firearm is capable of causing severe damage. I'm told that during the Great Depression far more deer were harvested with the .22LR than heavier calibers. If the cartridge will bring down a whitetail, it will kill a human and should be given the same respect as any other firearm.
mljdeckard
Member
But remember also, that people poaching to survive in the great depression weren't under pressure to make it count. They weren't like modern hunters who might only have one chance, to kill one animal, with one shot, once a year. (If that.) They didn't usually have big freezers to store a kill, and they didn't usually travel as far to hunt as modern hunters. They are looking for targets of opportunity, they aren't restricted by bag limits or seasons, and they aren't under pressure to take the biggest animal they can find. If they nick an animal with a .22, they will just wait for another one. Stealth and convenience were more important than clean kills.
Here's the thing about .22s. It's not so much that they will or won't do anything as much as they are UNPREDICTABLE. (All bullets are unpredictable, but .22s are much more so.) They MAY do a traditional wound cavity, or they MAY change direction because they have so little mass and energy they can get knocked around. When I was in high school, a friend of mine got hit right below the ribs with a .22 when we were out in the desert zapping jackrabbits. (We don't know who hit him. I know it wasn't me, I was reloading a 10/22 magazine when it happened, we think it might have been a ricochet.) It entered in the front, and exited out his back right below the ribs. We said a naughty word, carried him back to the truck, and drove as fast as we could to the nearest hospital, about 30 min away. He walked out 20 minutes later with two stitches and a band-aid, because the bullet had entered at an angle, skimmed the outside of his ribcage, and exited after having done a near 180. Like I say, we don't know if he was hit directly or by a ricochet, that bullet may have had reduced energy.
I think it is POSSIBLE but highly unlikely that a .22 can ricochet around someone's head. The sabot round from an M-1A1 120mm smoothbore can have this effect at the edge of its effective range. It doesn't have enough energy to scream straight through a target tank, so it will enter and spall, (push in a chunk of the tank's armor,) and the pieces will bounce around shredding the crew and touching off the ammo, but the circumstances where a .22 might do this would have to be perfect. I think most of the stories where they 'bounced around' in someone's head come from laypersons who just don't realize that any given gunshot wound may appear very devastating.
Here's the thing about .22s. It's not so much that they will or won't do anything as much as they are UNPREDICTABLE. (All bullets are unpredictable, but .22s are much more so.) They MAY do a traditional wound cavity, or they MAY change direction because they have so little mass and energy they can get knocked around. When I was in high school, a friend of mine got hit right below the ribs with a .22 when we were out in the desert zapping jackrabbits. (We don't know who hit him. I know it wasn't me, I was reloading a 10/22 magazine when it happened, we think it might have been a ricochet.) It entered in the front, and exited out his back right below the ribs. We said a naughty word, carried him back to the truck, and drove as fast as we could to the nearest hospital, about 30 min away. He walked out 20 minutes later with two stitches and a band-aid, because the bullet had entered at an angle, skimmed the outside of his ribcage, and exited after having done a near 180. Like I say, we don't know if he was hit directly or by a ricochet, that bullet may have had reduced energy.
I think it is POSSIBLE but highly unlikely that a .22 can ricochet around someone's head. The sabot round from an M-1A1 120mm smoothbore can have this effect at the edge of its effective range. It doesn't have enough energy to scream straight through a target tank, so it will enter and spall, (push in a chunk of the tank's armor,) and the pieces will bounce around shredding the crew and touching off the ammo, but the circumstances where a .22 might do this would have to be perfect. I think most of the stories where they 'bounced around' in someone's head come from laypersons who just don't realize that any given gunshot wound may appear very devastating.
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