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Interesting Couple Of Minutes This Morning.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Trunk Monkey, Nov 7, 2015.

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  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posted by fallout mike:
    It's not at all a question of whether he is homeless. The issue revolves around his allegedly carrying a knife in his hand.

    Did he constitute an imminent threat? That would depend a lot on the distance.

    Judgment call, but if you see fit to move your cover garment and put your hand on your gun, you had better call them--right away.

    That's not the way I read it.


    Absent lawful justification, that is sufficient to constitute a crime.
     
  2. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    You are missing s few key words though- "backed up BEHIND a transformer box".
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    It's all in the details. Was he concealed? Could the man with the knife have seen his action? Could a third person have seen the gun? No way to tell.

    I see no reason from the report to question the legality of someone being approached by a man with knife in hand being prepared, or even undertaking what would, in Arizona, be described as the "defensive display of a firearm" (where "display" need not involve showing it), but unless I were extremely confident that my actions could not have been detected, I sure wouldn't risk not being the first call it in.
     
  4. col.lemat

    col.lemat Member

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    I would be P Offed if I got a call like this taking me away from Winchells. A good reason to play 40 questions with the caller though
     
  5. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    As a retired cop who responded to many, many "suspicious person" type calls in 22 years (both as a young cop, then a supervisor, and finally a commander..). I have to go with the original reporters choice to not call the police.... It's the kind of judgment call that only the person on the scene can make (no matter what others think).

    By the way, anyone who thinks that an ordinary police force is going to be running hard on this type of call (absent some other aggravating factor...) is pretty much kidding themselves. You might get lucky and such a call would catch a cop close by but it still wouldn't be a high priority call as given...

    Funny thing, although not a high priority -this kind of call will be answered with great caution (young cops everywhere get advised over and over again..."wait for your back-up"). Think how different the outcome of that incident in Ferguson might have played out had the young officer waited for assistance before confronting the young man that almost took his life.... On more than one occasion having another officer on scene (and occasionally you might need more than one or two with you...) meant not having to use serious force (or deadly force) on someone armed with a knife or club or other weapon...

    I figure that's why most of us (and I'm long out of police work so I include myself in this category...) are well advised to avoid confronting suspicious or possibly dangerous individuals if possible. Now if I could just remember my own advice....
     
  6. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posted by lemaymiami:
    Yep.

    True.

    Or unlucky, if you are the suspect.

    I had occasion before we had CC to be approached by a man with a knife in a State park. Got away and did not call police. Scary.
     
  7. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Here in Southern California I don't think police would even come for "mentally ill guy acting weird", there are many of them on the streets. Maybe the knife would have brought them though.

    A couple of months ago one afternoon a probably mentally ill guy was sitting on a ledge in front of a bank in an upscale-ish shopping area near me, shooting a gun into the air, they did shut down the area for that one and they ended up killing him. From what I could gather from the news reports he wasn't specifically threatening anyone but when police arrived he raised the gun again so they shot him. He also had some kind of backpack which they sent a robot to move and then check for bombs. Found a link to the story, http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...lapd-swarm-in-studio-city-20150724-story.html.
     
  8. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Yikes, that is really scary. How did you get away?
     
  9. another pake

    another pake Member

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    My solicited opinion is that either you embellished the telling of the story to make us believe that you did indeed have
    ...or

    You erred by not calling in an incident which
    Your call
     
  10. col.lemat

    col.lemat Member

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    lemaymami is 100% spot on. Procedure!!! Took me a while to get it. Used to be the first there Johnny on the spot and hot to trot, not so much the last ten years of forty years of service. Call in if responding and wait for back up. Besides if it should turn out to be something, now you got good cop-bad cop going in your favor.
     
  11. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    There were 2 very important words that you overlooked in that sentence let's see if you can figure out what they might have been


    Obviously crazy person obviously armed walking towards me you don't think I was justified in getting ready to defend myself?

    Maybe I should have called it in but I didn't and there don't seem to have been any repercussions.
     
  12. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    The thing I find interesting is the OP felt threatened enough to seek cover, uncover and grip his gun, but did not feel it was a threatening enough situation to notify police. MY TAKE, he either over reacted on the front end or under reacted on the hind side.
    Where I live I had a bi-polar father of one of my kids friends show up at my house one day ranting about his visitation rights being taken away. Quick 911 call and I had 2 Sherrifs squads at my house 5 min later. Small sleepy community though.
     
  13. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I've dealt with homeless people. Some of them are seriously disturbed people, either from mental illness or drug/ alcohol addictions. I understand, to a small extent, just how dangerous their lives can be, and feel they ave every right to defend themselves, and have the tools to do so. The homeless are victims of violent crime, estimated to be higher than any other demographic, per capita. They don't often report the violence done to them, though, which is why it's simply estimated.

    Anyway, a homeless man with a reputation for being disturbed, walking down the street muttering is one thing. Same situation where the individual is obviously armed is another. I don't care if he had a Scottish broadsword strapped to his back, I'd care a lot more if he had it in hand.

    A holstered gun, or a sheathed/ pocket clipped knife is an entirely different situation than having a weapon in hand. One can be considered brandishing, menacing, etc.

    Armchair quarterbacking this situation, given the consideration for my own local law enforcement and how they behave and react, I would have called it in, maybe not 911 but the central non emergency dispatch, same as I would for reckless driving or other dangerous, non-emergency activities I witness.

    But, the OP doesn't seem to have a lot of confidence in this local LE to do anything about the situation, or react quickly. If I had grown cynical with my own local LEAs, I might not have bothered calling it in, either.

    I'd still feel pretty awful if I heard that he hurt someone, or another CC'er felt threatened and shot him, and I had done nothing that could have prevented the situation. Even if the cops didn't show up, the fact that I called it in puts the turd in their pocket and would relieve me just a little knowing that I did something, even if it was fruitless.
     
  14. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    I suppose it goes back to thought that if you aren't leaking anywhere and nothing is broken it was a successful encounter.

    Not knowing your neighborhood, local laws or quality of law enforcement it's really not for me to say one way or the other on your actions. Considering an incident when I opened my purse and put my hand on my weapon before discovering I had pulled up to a full serve gasoline pump and the sullen, unkempt individual walking up to my car was the employee I have room none to talk.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  15. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    O.P. says...

     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  16. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    I based my decision not to call the police on my past experience with CSPD. Right now there is a known, documented issue with slow response times.

    I called in twice last year once for shots fired in the street outside my apartment complex and once for 2 kids shooting a BB gun into a parking lot with no response that I'm aware of.

    Right after we moved here I found an ATM in our dumpster. I called it in, the police showed up a couple hours later and started questioning ME.

    Finally CSPD doesn't much care for citizens with handgun permits. Had I called it in the homeless man would have been long gone (he was walking away before I made it across the street) there would have been no one there and nothing to support my side of the story and I'm the one they would have rousted.

    Please don't sit there in YOUR town and try to tell me how the cops in MY town operate and I'll do you the same courtesy
     
  17. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    lemaymami says...

     
  18. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posted by Officers'Wife:
    I would not confuse opening a purse and putting one's hand in it, or putting one's hand in one's pocket, with exhibiting or displaying a weapon.

    Now, should one say or do anything to imply that the movement is associated in any way with preparing or threatening to access a weapon, that would be different.
     
  19. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    The knife in question looked to be about 6 inches long with maybe a 3 inch blade and when I moved behind the transformer box he was maybe 30 feet away.

    He appeared to be trying to hide the knife he had the handle in his hand with the blade along his forearm
     
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posted by Trunk Monkey:
    We've already discussed that. That's not the issue.

    Not relevant.

    To whom else would you expect them to speak?

    On what basis? On the basis of what you had reported? What would they do with that?

    You seem to have missed the point. It's not a matter of "how the cops 'operate' ". it's all about what might transpire in your state in the perhaps unlikely event that someone had seen you uncovering your gun in the presence of someone else and called it in first. If you think the officers would respond poorly to your call, try that one on for size.

    Again, it's a judgment call. If the likelihood of having been noticed is remote or less, many of us might not call.

    But then, posting the story on a public forum could close the loop, had the incident been called in by someone else.
     
  21. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    The biggest point of contention seems to be me not calling the police. I still think in this case it was the right call. Even if someone else had called it in (unlikely because the location precluded witnesses) The odds of the cops looking for either one of us or finding me were (IMO) pretty low.

    hope I never have to make that decision again but if I do I will give due consideration to your suggestions.

    Just to be clear had things escalated I would have called it in.
     
  22. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    That's an unfounded assumption. You call and report a homeless guy with a knife, last seen at the gas station. How's that do anything to make you a "target" of an investigation?

    You did everything right except not notifying the police.
     
  23. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    You were just lucky that the guy you confronted (or someone else) didn't contact the police about a man with a gun. That's always a possibility, and it has happened.

    1. Here's what another lawyer and well known commentator on self defense law, Andrew Branca, says about the importance of reporting an incident, even if you didn't have to fire your gun:

      • (emphasis in original)

    2. It's long been the fact that conduct can be evidence and that a jury may draw inferences from conduct.

      • U.S. v. Perkins, 937 F.2d 1397 (C.A.9 (Cal.), 1990), at 1402:

      • State v. Wimbush, 260 Iowa 1262, 150 N.W.2d 653 (Iowa, 1967), at 656:

      • State v. Lonnecker, 237 Neb. 207, 465 N.W.2d 737 (Neb., 1991), at 743:

      • Martin v. State, 707 S.W.2d 243 (Tex.App.-Beaumont, 1986), at 245:
    3. Credibility and an "aura of innocence" can be very important to you if the incident comes to the attention of the authorities from a source other than you.
     
  24. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    Calling the police

    Any time you use your firearm defensively, or even display it defensively, you have a choice to make.
    • Choice A: You can call the police.
    • Choice B: You can decline to call the police.

    Choice A:
    • You get to decide where your name goes on the police report (Victim, Witness, Contact, or Suspect).
    • If the police come to talk to you, you've had the opportunity to give your description to the police, and let them know you have a firearm so as not to surprise them.
    • If it goes to trial later, your lawyer can demonstrate to the jury that you had nothing to hide. After all, you are the one that called the police, right?

    Choice B:
    • You let someone else decide where your name goes on the police report. There's a good chance your name will appear under "Suspect 1."
    • You let someone else determine whether to put in a report that might make it look like you left the scene of a crime without calling the police.
    • When the police do find you, they might know that you had a firearm, but will not have any other information about you.

    Your choice.
     
  25. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    Trunk monkey, from my take of your post you DID NOT show your gun, correct?
     
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