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Interesting Iraq war politics

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Malice, Feb 1, 2006.

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  1. Malice

    Malice Member

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    First off, let me say that I have always been VERY suspicious about the reasons we went to war in Iraq. Especialy the WMD story.

    This semester I am taking a class called American Political Theory and I have a great professor named Paula J. Philbin. Its early in the semester and I already have a great deal of respect for her. Her class is great, and shes has the right idea about the way this country was designed to work, and how it contrasts to the garbage we get today.

    What makes it even better, is this is her first time teaching in a long while. She has spent the last decade or so as an advisor working in the White House, with the department of defense and homeland security.

    We got off on a tangent today in class discussion and got onto why the Iraq war happened. She said she was in the White House and in some of the meetings leading up to it.

    One student asked, "Well, what was really going on? I mean, what was the attitude at the time as to why we were going to war?"

    Her anwser suprised me. According to her, it REALLY was WMDs. Specificaly, Sadams history of using them, and the fact that UN inspectors were finding much more WMDs than he supposedly had. Also, in the months leading up to the war, sattelite photos captured convoys of 18-wheelers rushing to the Syrian boarder and back EVERY night for over a month. She said this was not classified information and has always ben miffed at the media for not reporting it.

    She did admit however that there was genuine suprise in the administration as time passed and we didnt find anyhting.

    Another interesting comment she made is that she got the impression that the Vice President's office seemed to be the ones who convinced Bush to move on Iraq.

    Her comments have mademe re-think my opinion on the reasons we went to war. It is fun to have an insider as a teacher. :cool:
     
  2. KriegHund

    KriegHund Member

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    Ive always considered bush an honest man.

    I have not considered him particularly wise and intelligent.

    The book "American Soldier" gave me a good perspective on media reporting. Read it some time.
     
  3. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Saddam Hussein was cunning enough to move ugly weapons into neighboring Syria?

    Well, no fair!
     
  4. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    The Bush folks have implied that the WMD were moved out of Iraq and into Syria at some point before we invaded.

    If that is the case, then why haven't they been clamoring for us to invade Syria?

    If the WMD issue was serious enough to justify attacking Iraq, then is it not still serious that they are in Syria?

    And if they are in Syria, why have none been used against our troops by all the foreign fighters that have come from Syria.
     
  5. GoRon

    GoRon Member

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    The optometrist is less likely to use them than Saddam.

    He probably regrets taking them now, wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some back channel agreements being made.

    We don't hear much about Syria these days.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2006
  6. Thefabulousfink

    Thefabulousfink Member

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    Personally I have allways felt a little dissapointed in the Bush administration for using the WMD case as the primary one for war. I would have preferred that Bush had used real reasons that Saddam sould have been removed for.

    1. He's a F***ing Murderer! This guy was the Hitler/Stalin of the Mid East, no shakey intelligence on this, it is hard fact.

    2. He was giving gold to the families of Palistinian suicide bombers. And people say he didn't support terrorists, No, he just didn't support the 9/11 bombers. He did support a lot of people who would be all to happy to try a similar attack.

    3. He has a history of developing and using WMDs, most of this was prior to the mid 1990's, but it shows intent. Also his actions up to the Iraq would lead a reasonable person to believe that he had WMD(he made statements that he would use them).

    Now if a known murderer with a history of violence and a documented history of hatered for you shows up with his hand in his jacket, claiming to have a gun, and threatening to shoot; would you check to see if he was acctually holding a gun, tell him that he will be in big trouble if he does infact have a gun, or shoot the bastard?
     
  7. KriegHund

    KriegHund Member

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    The problem with saying "because hes a bad person" is that there are many many bad people in the world.

    One thing at a time.
     
  8. Thefabulousfink

    Thefabulousfink Member

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    And now there is one fewer.

    ....he's making a list and checking it twice.:evil:
     
  9. shecky

    shecky Member

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    Are there? The daily bombs going off in Iraq mus be spontaneous combustions!
     
  10. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

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    I call BS on your prof.

    We are supposed to believe that Saddam, a certifiable evil madman(TM), who had spent years of his reign amassing WMD in a bid to rule the ME (not to mention for his own protection from all of the forces that would have loved to overthrow him), made a deal with the neighboring madmen (who we know he must have held in deep respect and trust), to undertake an enormous logistical operation to move many tons of materials and equipment, and somehow they managed to pull this off immediately prior to our invasion. We must also believe he was able to order the complete dismantling of research, development, storage and deployment facilities over an area the size of California, coordinated the movement of all of that tonage across the border in a timely manner and didn't leave as much as a trace of the material or any evidence of the physical infastructure (oh, yeah, there were those 10-year-old plans buried in someone's rose garden). That his trusted evil twins in Syria haven't given a hint of their existance.

    The absurdity of this whole premise is so apparent I wouldn't expect an academic, even a Bush admin one, to even try to put it over on undergrads.
     
  11. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Never underestimate the absurdity of idiots working in large groups.
     
  12. Malice

    Malice Member

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    I dont call you an idiot and expect the same.
     
  13. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    The war against Islamic terrorist savagry was an Air Force mission. Instead of taking it on and winning the war, we've marched into yet another land war in Asia.
     
  14. Lobotomy Boy

    Lobotomy Boy Member

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    I'll give the professor the benefit of the doubt. She may well think she's telling the truth and at some level even sort of believe it herself. That's because the most effective way to lie is to tell the truth, or at least some version of the truth that a group of people have convinced themselves to buy into.

    Take this example. There was no way the Bush administration was going to whip the masses into a fearful frenzy over something as abstract as the Iraqis threatening the hegemony of the petrodollar, even though that may well have been the most legitimate threat the country faced. It was much easier to use hyperbolic imagery of a vague threat that "might come in the form of a mushroom cloud." And even if the neocons were cynical enough to believe that we needed to fight a war to preserve the dollar while convincing us that it was about WMDs, they weren't good enough actors to pull it off.

    The solution was to convince themselves that the war was about WMDs. Once they bought into it, at least on a superficial level, convincing most of the rest of us was easy.
     
  15. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Okay... Let's assume that all those Kurds, etc., just died sorta all at once, by natural causes.

    Convince me.
     
  16. Ezekiel

    Ezekiel Member

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    The interesting thing with this analogy is that, if said guy is in your house and you do this, things are fine: or, at least, as "fine" as they can be when you gun someone down. If this happens on the street, and you grease him, you get charged with a homicide. Sort of screws up the analogy, no?
     
  17. middy

    middy Member

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    I'm sure all those trucks going back and forth across the Syrian border were full of donuts. Syrians love donuts, doncha know...
     
  18. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Who called you an idiot? I was referring the the Bush staff in general, and your professor in particular..
     
  19. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    Hmm Bash Bush use the F=word, Nothing gun related.
     
  20. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "If that is the case, then why haven't they been clamoring for us to invade Syria?"

    One thing at a time. Oh, was that a rhetorical question?

    John
     
  21. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

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    Actually, for the analogy to work, you have to go to his house and do the greasing.

    I'm sure you've seen the pictures. Otherwise, all you would have is the second-hand word of a mid-level ex-admin academic.
     
  22. middy

    middy Member

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    The photos are classified, but nobody (except you) disputes their existence. They are not proof of WMD transfer, of course, thus my donut theory...
     
  23. bogie

    bogie Member

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    No explanation yet for the thousands of dead Kurds in mass graves? I'm waiting...
     
  24. JJpdxpinkpistols

    JJpdxpinkpistols Member

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    go here, Bogie:

    Stephen Pelletiere, Douglas Johnson and Lief Rosenberger, Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East (Carlisle Barracks, PA: U.S. Army War College, 1990), p. 52.

    I think you will find that the Iranians claim at *least* partial responsibility for Halabja:

    No one in the right mind claims that Iraq possessed zero WMD's throughout history. What we keep waiting to show on our TV screens are the WMD's we were assured that Saddam had, ready to hand off to terrorists.

    No such thing.

    I say "Lie", but others say, "Poor Intel" or "Bad Planning". Either way you cut it, it isn't the same as cheating on a cross-word puzzle or poker. Where I come from, invading foreign nations on the basis of "Poor Intel" means you might need to find a new job. Of course, the Bush-Cultists will excuse his "Poor Intel" and call me an idealogue. Er. Whatever.
     
  25. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Okay. I have no firearms, ammunition, or components thereof in my house.

    Just to prove it, you can come look in a month.
     
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