I understand that an interstate transfer of a handgun between non-ffl holders requires the transfer of the handgun to a ffl in the buyers state. My question is does the handgun have to be sent by carrier or can the seller deliver it in person to the ffl to be picked up by the buyer?
Interstate transfer
- Thread starter wyofool
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dirt_j00
Member
I've done this before.
Seller = MS resident
Buyer = AL resident
Went to a pawn shop (FFL) near the stateline on the AL side, and he transferred them. $15/each
Seller = MS resident
Buyer = AL resident
Went to a pawn shop (FFL) near the stateline on the AL side, and he transferred them. $15/each
Me too. I'm from Texas but am currently working in Fairbanks, AK. The buyer (AK resident) and I went to to an FFL to do the transfer who insisted we didn't need him and that a FTF between us was legal. I politely told him that I didn't feel it was and that I'd prefer we went ahead with a transfer.
dirt_j00
Member
Yeah, the FFL I used said he didn't think it was necessary either. ATF says otherwise though.
deadin
Member
Just having a FFL doesn't automatically make one an expert.
(Just like having a high post count doesn't make one either.
)NavyLCDR
member
hightech said:
If shipping to an FFL, notification is only required by the company's policy, not by Federal law.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
From a cite in the Intrastate thread that's running:
"ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:
(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]"
So, for Interstate:
1. Nonlicensee can ship to any FFL, anywhere.
2. Carrier must be notified.
3. Carrier must not put a label on the package.
"ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:
(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]"
So, for Interstate:
1. Nonlicensee can ship to any FFL, anywhere.
2. Carrier must be notified.
3. Carrier must not put a label on the package.
NavyLCDR
member
As I stated, Art, there is NO Federal STATUTE that requires a shipper be notified of the shipment of a firearm going to an FFL. It is only company policy. If you would care to post the STATUTE that requires a shipper to be notified of a firearm being shipped to an FFL, I would love to see it. But let me save you some searching:
18 USC 922(e):
Notice the underlined part. WRITTEN notification of a firearm shipment is ONLY required by STATUTE IF the shipment is going to OTHER THAN an FFL. It is NOT required by STATUTE to notify if it is going to an FFL. The ATF FAQ contains an error, the ATF knows the faq contains an error, they have admitted that it contains an error, but they are not going to change it. HOWEVER the ATF FAQ is NOT law and you CANNOT be prosecuted for going against their erroneous FAQ. However, you did get two out of three requirements of the actual STATUTE correct.
18 USC 922(e):
Notice the underlined part. WRITTEN notification of a firearm shipment is ONLY required by STATUTE IF the shipment is going to OTHER THAN an FFL. It is NOT required by STATUTE to notify if it is going to an FFL. The ATF FAQ contains an error, the ATF knows the faq contains an error, they have admitted that it contains an error, but they are not going to change it. HOWEVER the ATF FAQ is NOT law and you CANNOT be prosecuted for going against their erroneous FAQ. However, you did get two out of three requirements of the actual STATUTE correct.
The verbage your looking for is in the statute you listed. The term shipping "to persons other than licensed" is saying that it is unlawfull to ship by common carrier through interstate shipping to someone who is not a licensed dealer, collector etc. The requirement for notification is in the same sentence that says you cannot ship directly to the person your selling to in another state.
The USPS has form 1508 that is filled out and submitted at the time of shipping. Although telling them of the firearm shipment, this is written notice. Im not familiar with FedEx or UPS paperwork.
The USPS has form 1508 that is filled out and submitted at the time of shipping. Although telling them of the firearm shipment, this is written notice. Im not familiar with FedEx or UPS paperwork.
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NavyLCDR
member
M36 said:
You said two opposing things here M36:
1. The verbage is in the statute Navy.
2. It does not have a specific statute per say
So which is it? It is either in the statute or it is not. Just in case you missed it the first time, it is NOT REQUIRED by any FEDERAL STATUTE to notify a carrier of a shipment of a firearm if that shipment is going to an FFL. I posted the applicable statute.
What Art posted is NOT LAW. It is an ATF faq that the ATF has admitted contains an error.
Bad post, I made a couple of edits before getting to what is posted now. You happen to catch one that I changed.
You did post the right statute but I question your interpretation. From your interpretation of the statute are you saying that anyone, can ship by any means and is not required to notify the shipper that the box contains a firearm, just because it is going to an licensed dealer?
You did post the right statute but I question your interpretation. From your interpretation of the statute are you saying that anyone, can ship by any means and is not required to notify the shipper that the box contains a firearm, just because it is going to an licensed dealer?
NavyLCDR
member
1. A non-FFL can NOT use the US Post Office to mail a handgun to anyone, that is against post office regulations.
2. Anyone using the US Post Office, whether it be a private party mailing a rifle, or an FFL mailing any firearm, must notify the Post Office of the firearm, that is in the post office regulations - which are CFRs - Code of Federal Regulations.
3. Anyone shipping any firearm by common or contract carrier is NOT REQUIRED by FEDERAL law to notify that common or contract carrier IF that shipment is intrastate (within the same state) as the shipper, or going to a licensed manufacturer, dealer, collector or importer (IE an FFL holder) regardless of which state that FFL holder is located in.
4. The common carriers' (UPS and FEDEX) COMPANY POLICIES require notification to them of the firearm, however, it is not Federal law that requires it.
5. Shipments to non-FFLs out of state require WRITTEN notification of the firearm to the carrier, because, more than likely, the shipment is illegal anyway.
6. Let's say you believe Art and are sending a firearm out of state, back to the manufacturer for repair. You go to the Fedex counter and say, I have a pistol in this box that I am sending to S&W for repair. The Fedex counter guy says, "Cool. It has to by air, that will be $70". He sends the package off. So, according to what Art posted, have you complied with the requirement? And, if so, what requirement have you complied with?
2. Anyone using the US Post Office, whether it be a private party mailing a rifle, or an FFL mailing any firearm, must notify the Post Office of the firearm, that is in the post office regulations - which are CFRs - Code of Federal Regulations.
3. Anyone shipping any firearm by common or contract carrier is NOT REQUIRED by FEDERAL law to notify that common or contract carrier IF that shipment is intrastate (within the same state) as the shipper, or going to a licensed manufacturer, dealer, collector or importer (IE an FFL holder) regardless of which state that FFL holder is located in.
4. The common carriers' (UPS and FEDEX) COMPANY POLICIES require notification to them of the firearm, however, it is not Federal law that requires it.
5. Shipments to non-FFLs out of state require WRITTEN notification of the firearm to the carrier, because, more than likely, the shipment is illegal anyway.
6. Let's say you believe Art and are sending a firearm out of state, back to the manufacturer for repair. You go to the Fedex counter and say, I have a pistol in this box that I am sending to S&W for repair. The Fedex counter guy says, "Cool. It has to by air, that will be $70". He sends the package off. So, according to what Art posted, have you complied with the requirement? And, if so, what requirement have you complied with?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
478.31 (b) about labels.
Don't worry about believing me. The ATF regs are STILL stickied at the top of the Legal Forum page.
Don't worry about believing me. The ATF regs are STILL stickied at the top of the Legal Forum page.
NavyLCDR
member
Art,
27 CFR 478 says exactly the same thing, what's your point?
The requirement for written notice to the carrier still ONLY applies IF the shipment is going out of state AND the shipment is going to non-license holder.
27 CFR 478 says exactly the same thing, what's your point?
The requirement for written notice to the carrier still ONLY applies IF the shipment is going out of state AND the shipment is going to non-license holder.
Navy, you can believe what you want to believe, and I will agree that there is a distinction in the statute relating to "interstate" and "intrastate".
But to go onto a public forum and dispense information that it is legal to violate federal regulations concerning shipping of firearms to anyone is pretty reckless and ignorant on your part.
In your last statement, you sound like you are justifying your flawed logic by purposely not notifying a shipper of a firearm that you are sending to avoid paying a higher shipping fee. Great move
So, tell us, and the ATF folks that sometimes read these forums, how many firearms have you shipped and failed to notify the shipper that the contents were a firearm so you can save a buck?
Im all for a good discussion, but I'm drawing the line on this one. You obviously think that you are a little smarter than federal regulations.
Why dont you call your local ATF field office and get it from the horses mouth.
I'm out.
But to go onto a public forum and dispense information that it is legal to violate federal regulations concerning shipping of firearms to anyone is pretty reckless and ignorant on your part.
In your last statement, you sound like you are justifying your flawed logic by purposely not notifying a shipper of a firearm that you are sending to avoid paying a higher shipping fee. Great move
So, tell us, and the ATF folks that sometimes read these forums, how many firearms have you shipped and failed to notify the shipper that the contents were a firearm so you can save a buck?
Im all for a good discussion, but I'm drawing the line on this one. You obviously think that you are a little smarter than federal regulations.
Why dont you call your local ATF field office and get it from the horses mouth.
I'm out.
NavyLCDR
member
M36 said:
Is this close enough for the horses mouth for you or can you see the mouth from the end that you are at?
Please don't go away mad. Just go away.
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So does this mean I don't have to follow UPS' and FedEx's rules on notifying them of the handgun I'm shipping to a licensed dealer/manufacturer/etc.?? ... just because it's not federal law?
Surely UPS and FedEx could punish me for disobeying them, even if it were not an unlawful action.
Surely UPS and FedEx could punish me for disobeying them, even if it were not an unlawful action.
NavyLCDR
member
UPS or FedEx punish you? NO. Company policies have no statutory weight. In order for them to have a claim against you in court, they would have to prove that they were damaged in some way, such as you shipped a loaded gun and it discharged in shipping.
Return your shipment to you? YES.
Fail to reimburse you on an insurance claim? YES.
Look, not once on this thread have I ever even suggested shipping a firearm in violation of any company policy. I have no idea why that was even brought up. All I did was to correct a mistaken post that said Federal law required notification.
Return your shipment to you? YES.
Fail to reimburse you on an insurance claim? YES.
Look, not once on this thread have I ever even suggested shipping a firearm in violation of any company policy. I have no idea why that was even brought up. All I did was to correct a mistaken post that said Federal law required notification.
deadin
Member
I suppose, technically, they could take you to court for breaking the contract you agreed to when you shipped. It wouldn't be worth their time, but it would be an option.
And proof of damage in some way? How about the "extra" shipping charges you cheated them out of?
And proof of damage in some way? How about the "extra" shipping charges you cheated them out of?
There are no "extra shipping charges" if it's a long gun........there is also no law that requires that a handgun be shipped overnight......again, that is company policy with no force of law behind it.
Navy is absolutely correct......even though the BATF FAQ says you have to notify a common carrier, this statement is not supported when you look at the actual statutes that regulate shipping firearms.........the BATF obviously knows the FAQ is incorrect but does not fix the inaccuracy.........
Navy is absolutely correct......even though the BATF FAQ says you have to notify a common carrier, this statement is not supported when you look at the actual statutes that regulate shipping firearms.........the BATF obviously knows the FAQ is incorrect but does not fix the inaccuracy.........
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