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Iraq War (for instance)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by neoncowboy, Dec 24, 2005.

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  1. neoncowboy

    neoncowboy Member

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    I inadvertantly stirred up a hornets nest over in the general forum regarding military service and whether it squares with one's personal views of American foreign policy.

    I am finding myself in a transition toward libertariansim here lately, mostly due to seeing the republicans more or less abandon me...and after all, if you ignore gay marriage and abortion, they pretty much look just like democrats. At best, the republicans aren't in the business of smaller government and bigger personal liberties.

    Now, about this war: We were attacked by Islamic Terrorists. I am pretty sure that the motive for this attack was not 'they hate our freedom and American way of life' as much as 'they hate us for screwing around in their conflicts and taking sides in their religious wars'. I mean, lets be honest, we've made enemies and it's our enemies who want us dead.

    So, a foreign policy of leaving the people of the globe alone to sort out their own affairs...while we sort out ours at home, it just makes more sense. It's a LOT cheaper in $$ and American blood. It makes us no enemies around the globe. People may say, 'what about safeguarding world energy supplies?'. Well, won't the free market take care of that?

    I have always been real pro military and proud of our nation standing up for the little guy...but I'm a little disenfranchised here. I'm not seeing the point. All it really ever does is get us killed and make people hate us. A quick survey of the world reveals no less evil than there ever was: people around the globe are still facing oppression and brutality at the hands of bad men. No amount of American intervention is ever going to change that.

    I never thought I'd say it, but 'support our troops: bring them home' is making a lot more sense to me today. At this stage in this particular conflict, we're pretty well comitted to securing Iraq for as long as they need us. I am proud of the progress the Iraqis are making and hope they succeed at freedom. After that, I really want to see a foreign policy shift in America that includes:
    • bringing troops home from all around the globe
    • withdrawing foreign aid and diplomatic support from pretty much everyone
    • minding our own damn business
    • retooling/retraining the military to serve as a defensive force
    • letting the world know we aren't in the business of bailing everyone out or taking sides in their fights

    Is this somehow unpatriotic? I love America. I want the America of John Adams back:
     
  2. The-Fly

    The-Fly Member

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    the only problem with your idea is that corporate america, and their lackeys, the democratic and republican parties, NEED to intervene and control the world. Just think back to the banana republics of yesterday. Why do you think Bush wants so many illegals in the country? Because they drive down the cost of labor, helping his corporate masters earn even greater profits.

    Personally, I think the republican and democratic parties want to turn the US into the next Mexico. Republicans love the idea of a huge labor pool of poorly educated people that will believe whatever lies they pedal to the masses, while the Democrats want a massive welfare state, and you need a lot of poor people for that level of political support.
     
  3. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Fly,

    I'm afraid your post disqualifies you from serious discussion. As you will see below, there is room for honest, rational disagreement about our involvement in the ME. But paranoid rants about the big corporations, Bush's masters, etc. are not debate.

    Neon, you make a fair point in your second paragraph.

    Unfortunately, America can't isolate herself anymore, though in some cases I'd love to see her withdraw: Europe, for example. Let those ungrateful jerks carry their own defense.

    The seeds of the present conflict were planted before America's birth, planted by the Prophet himself. Let us not forget that the Crusades were a COUNTERATTACK in response to Islam's invasions of the west. The second world war hastened our involvement in the ME, and the Cold War did too.

    No, I don't believe we brought this on ourselves by making enemies. You can follow that trail all the way back to Cain and Abel. The sorry fact is that there is no race, no nation on earth which did not displace or conquer someone else. And therefore there is no people, race, nation, or faith who can justify doing what the Islamists do today.

    And wherever the guilt lies in the present conflict, I really believe that we have a stark choice between a world dominated by democracy (however imperfect) and one dominated by Sharia. Could you really prefer the latter?

    Apologies to Derek: I know there's a difference between folks like you and the ones we're fighting now.
     
  4. Firethorn

    Firethorn Member

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    Actually, if you think about it, 'taking sides in their religious wars' is automatic. We're not a muslim theocracy. Therefore we're automatically the enemy. We're high on their list as we're a successful secular society.

    On the other hand, maybe we wouldn't be as high on their list if we hadn't taken the actions we did. In many ways I feel that we're cleaning up the mess of the cold war. For example, we might have been able to avoid the whole Osama thing if we'd stayed and supported Afghanistan after they successfully pushed back the USSR, instead of leaving them to collapse into Anarchy. That would have robbed Osama of much of his support. We'd have a large, successful, friendly country in the middleast. The USA's reputation would have been better.

    I'll agree that it's ugly. We're yelled at, hated, and called imperialists when we intervene, but we're also yelled at, hated, and called cold hearted when we don't intervene.

    Monetary aid, even food aid for anything but the most temporary of situations doesn't work. The fact that people are starving is more of a symptom than a problem. The problem is the drought, or more often the area's government suppressing the farmers. Fix that, and the starvation goes away.

    I also view it in terms of WWII and the Cold War. We need to nip certain behaviors in the bud, and is, though tragic, worth american lives to prevent. Genocide is one of them. Of course, I feel that airdropping weapons and supplies to the victims can be a good solution. Makes genocide alot more expensive to the killers.
     
  5. CAnnoneer

    CAnnoneer Member

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    +1 The-Fly

    The more Americans see the stark truth about their ruling class, the more they will be able to resist their manipulation and vote in politicians who are servants, not masters to the electorate.

    Bottom line is both major parties are undermining our liberties and the American way of life, albeit in different ways and for different reasons. That is why ideologies like "the lesser of two evils" are ultimately so ruinous to the country and beneficial to the wreckers.
     
  6. bearmgc

    bearmgc Member

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    +1
    We are automatically enemies even, without involvement. We would have been targeted anyways. We had to respond. And Europe, by not maintaining an adequate defense, will certainly drop their responsibility on our doorstep.
     
  7. jdkelly

    jdkelly Member

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    ...Mr. Adams believed in direct military assistance.

    If I remember correctly, during the American Revolution Mr. Adams served as an American diplomat to Holland and France, requesting both financial and MILITARY assistance? Obviously Mr. Adams believed in direct military assistance.

    Remember, the American Revolution might have ended badly for we rebels, had not the French fleet arrived in the Americas.


    Respectfully,

    jdkelly
     
  8. GoRon

    GoRon Member

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    I don't want my representative to be the servant of the paranoid tinfoil hat wearer crowd.
     
  9. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    War is not good for business.

    Those cold-hearted greedy corporations had it much easier when there was no war in the ME. Whatever you may think of "Big Oil", it was sure cheaper in 1989 to get oil out of the region than it is now. Why fight for oil when you can just buy it? Why would a preisdent get himself into the present mess for money, when he and his friends already have plenty? Makes absolutely no sense.

    If we leave now, they will still hate us. They will still carry on their terror program.
     
  10. Khornet

    Khornet Member

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    Neon,

    don't you mean you stirred up a KHORNET's nest?
     
  11. cowboybobb693

    cowboybobb693 Member

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    You are starting to sound like Jane Fonda !!!!
    By any chance did you see the interview that BaBa WaWa did with the guy that was trying to blow himself and a buttload of other folks up, only his bomb "misfired". He stated that ANYONE that does not follow the Muslum faith should die and when we do, we will all be sent to Hell.
    These are the type of fanatics that we are trying to stop.
    Who do you think should run the economy besides "Big Business" Can you see Mom and Pop oil companies processing oil for gasoline,diesel fuel,heating oil, beef processing, steel manufacturing etc... Get a grip, big business employs people, pays retirement, medical etc.... If you think that our way of doing things is so bad go live on an island because the ENTIRE world is controlled by big business/rich people and it has always been that way and will never change.
    Geez you whiny people give me a headache
     
  12. georgeduz

    georgeduz Member

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    cold-hearted greedy corporations suppy large amounts of good paying jobs,thats a good thing,jobs are good not bad,helping others is good.having power around the globe is good for us.and u jane fondas have the right to stay out of the military,we dont want ur kind anyway,
     
  13. Desertdog

    Desertdog Member

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    Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
    If you do not worship Allah,you are an infidel and need to be removed from this world.
     
  14. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Neoncowboy, I believe this statement of yours was what go everyone stirred up:
    Some of us in the military, or former miitary, rightly took this an as insult ... If you knew any better, you'd have known that's not why people join the armed forces.

    You would be wrong. Dead wrong. They DO hate our freedom and our way of life. Recommend you do some research and familiarize yourself with some of the statements (even the tamer ones) of the Islamic jihadists.
     
  15. joab

    joab Member

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    The majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis as is Bin Laden.
    I don't think we had been medling in any of their conflicts or religious wars, other than the desired anihilation of Isreal.

    The position Neon is taking is an isolationist position shared by many during WWII and even before
    Many of the framers favored isolation.

    The world is too small now for total isolation
    As a nation we could no more do that than individual states could
    Even China sees that now.

    I do agree that the nation should reevaluate what foreign issues actually involve us and that a third party is becoming more and more a likely outcome of the present parties losing touch with average American values
     
  16. shermacman

    shermacman Member

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    Uh, dude, you are the corporation, not George Bush. Your internet connection, your computer, the heat in your house, the electricity, the lights, your Christmas tree, the food you ate last night.

    These aren't George Bush's corporations, they are your corporations. And thank God for them or you would be writing with the burnt end of a stick on a rock in a cave while your children froze to death.
     
  17. GoRon

    GoRon Member

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    +1

    The anti corporation rhetoric makes me laugh. As if they are some alien entity.

    We are corporate America, almost all of us work for corporations and we all prosper due to the efficiency of our corporations.
     
  18. cz75bdneos22

    cz75bdneos22 Member

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    i support bringing home my brothers from overseas conflict...i too love the USA but would not be overthere fighting/dying over this "nonsense"...i feel for those that have/will lose loved ones in this "war"../i have people there as we speak, there isn't a day that goes by, that i don't ask for theur safe return to our families. Stop the madness.! protect those that are in need right now overthere, they are doing what they have been told to do...regretfully, it could have been otherwise...Live and Learn...:(
     
  19. cz75bdneos22

    cz75bdneos22 Member

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    No they don't:banghead: ...as far as "they" are concerned, we can keep our "freedoms" and way of life and as the saying goes" STWTSDS" This country of our is only 230 years old folks...people all over the world have been living/born into cultures going back 4000-5000 years...i liken it to city folk going to our ranch and telling us what's "best" for the ranch ...if only they were running the show...Yeah, Right! when you get your own ranch, then do as you will, cuz i know what i'm gonnsa did...YMMV
     
  20. cz75bdneos22

    cz75bdneos22 Member

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    would that somehow be similar to the Catholic/Christian Inquisitors and the conquistadors that "tamed" the New World?

    Dogs come in all colors...i have yet to read/hear/see any group corner the market on evil doings...if you would like to disagee, please share that i like to know...;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2005
  21. Kaylee

    Kaylee Moderator

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    cowboy.. you seem to miss the fact that we are presently there. You can't unring a bell.

    No less the Osama himself has pointed to our running from Somalia as proof that if you keep biting at American's' heels long enough, we'll turn tail and run. He used that withdrawal to gather support for the attacks on 9/11.

    If we do as you suggest, then we invite more and bigger attacks in the future. We ARE THERE NOW. No amout of whining about "lies" "bad intelligence" or anything else will change that. No amout of Congressional finger pointing or media posturing will undo what has been done. All it accomplishes is to weaken resolve at home and embolden those who attack us.

    Once you've grabbed the tiger's tail, you can't let go without gettin' bit. You gotta take down the tiger.
     
  22. Stoney

    Stoney Member

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    Cowboybobb693
    Well said, my feelings exactly.
     
  23. GoRon

    GoRon Member

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    Fine piece of cultural relativism there cz :barf:

    The only "dog" I see is the strawman of an argument you posted. We cannot have the moral high ground in our present conflict with Islamic extremists because of the Crusades?:rolleyes:
     
  24. neoncowboy

    neoncowboy Member

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    The statements I've read from Osama all indicate that 9/11 was retaliation for:
    1. our troops stationed all over saudi arabia
    2. embargoes of Iraq
    3. unconditional support of Israel
    You can call it 'hating western values' and pit Muslim against Christian...but then you'd have to explain why Switzerland isn't a terrorist target.

    This may be true...but without our blatant interference all over the middle east and our taking such an active role in trying to shape their political processes and policies, their oil production and sales practices and their social values...would they have any (much less crucial) support from the Arab/Muslim people at large? Without that support, would they really be able to wage a war/jihad against us? I don't think so.

    This is an unfortunate and very sad side-effect of the way the party system has shaped the American political landscape. We've created this separatism between American values to the point where even if a conservative, patriotic, gun-owning, liberty espousing American begins to even question modern foreign policy...we are labeled 'whiny'.

    cowboybobb693: I'm not a whiner, I want to examine the role of US foreign policy in developing our present (and future) enemies. You know why? Because without those enemies, we don't have a war on terror...and without a war on terror, we don't have statists in Washington with a reason to try to take my liberties away.
     
  25. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    Please try actually picking up a history book and reading it. The Crusades were to regain lands that Islamic armies TOOK. The first stages of the crusades were to take back the Iberian peninsula, modern day Spain and Portugal, also it was to take back Sicily. It was then called on for Christian kingdoms to RETAKE, not take, RETAKE lands which had been lost to Islamic armies in the past. Was it religiously charged? Sure but that was the times much of your life was controlled by the church and your religious values. Modern day Israeli and Syria were chosen because that is where their religious history was, it also had strategic and trade value. It belonged to Christians before it belonged to Islam. Crusades were to get back land of value (value beyond simply religious at that) that had been taken. But it was not "Lets go kill them, they don't worship Christ" it was "They are taking our lands it is time to get them back." The this is payback mentality for the Crusades argument is laughable at best and perpetuated by those who have little understanding of history.

    EDIT- Also last time I checked the US didn't have a thing to do with the Crusades even if they had been a factor beyond snowballing. The three main countries involved were France (yes there was a time they didn't just wave the white flag and had some balls) and England with Germany and Italian city states in lesser roles. Also major players were orders of knights such as the Knights Templar and the Hospitaller Knights of St. John both huge military orders that played major roles in Crusader held lands, there were countless smaller orders as well. So if that is the reason tlet them attack France and England, last I checked they haven't attacked France and only attacked England in a relativly small attack after close support of the US in a modern war.
     
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