Is .38 Special Sufficient for SD ?

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For those who always try to sell the 9mm as better than the .38 Special. The 9mm is loaded to the same pressures as the .357 Magnum so it should be compared to the .357. Does anyone think the 9mm is superior to the .357 Magnum?

For those,who feel the .38 Special is too anemic for SD, would you stand in front of one while the trigger is pulled? I would not.

IMO all the SD cartridges have their place so comparing them to each other is useless. Use the proper cartridge for the gun and situation.
 
Though not my first choice, I would not feel too bad if I had to carry or use a .38 Special for self defense. My choice of factory loaded ammo would be a 158 grain +P lead hollowpoint semiwadcutter. My choice of handload would be a 148 grain HBWC loaded backwards over a powder charge I won't list here.

(Feel free to reference multiple past threads about the wisdom of using handloads for defense)
 
The old 158 grain LRN "widowmaker" loads are NOT good for SD work. But, loads like the 158 grain LSWCHP +P (FBI load) and the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P JHP Short Barrel load (great in snubs and even better in a 4" barrel) are some good trustworthy loads that have proven themselves on the street.
 
I'm confident that my 135 Gr. Gold Dot's will do the job as long as I put them in the right place.
 
I'm confident that my 135 Gr. Gold Dot's will do the job as long as I put them in the right place.

I agree, Wishoot. I keep them in my S&W Model 64 with a 4" barrel for home defense. When I carried a .38 snub, a S&W Model 642, I also used that load. The NYPD and I believe the LAPD use the same 135 grain Speer Gold Dots in not only their backup guns, but also their full sized service revolvers as well. Also if you ever buy a box of 50 and it just says "135 grain +P" and omits the "Short Barrel" designation, it is not a different load, they usually only say "short barrel" on the box of 20 but the rounds inside are identical. The 50 round boxes are usually made for sale to police departments and you can catch some excellent deals on overruns of them vs the more expensive 20 round boxes meant for commercial sale to the public. This load, IMHO, is the best all-around .38 special +P defense/service load ever made. :)
 
The old 158 grain LRN "widowmaker" loads are NOT good for SD work.

Did you read the experience I reported in post #2? The old RNL may not be the best but over the last 100+ years it has stopped killed a lot of bad guys. Even the very best SWC and hollow points are just a few percentage points ahead of the round nosed bullet. And even being shot with a round nose you are still being shot. If they were all I had I would use them. But if better bullets are available it would be silly not to use those. But just because you have the latest, nastiest HP load don't fool yourself into thinking you have a death ray. A well placed round nose bullet will kill just as well as anything else. They have been doing the job for a couple of centuries.

And yes they are Widow Makers. The guy my uncle shot with one made a widow out of his wife. And by the way, he shot her too.
 
38spcl is plenty for most civilian defensive applications, and more than plenty when placed well. I've never given it a second thought in carrying one, for many years.
 
For those,who feel the .38 Special is too anemic for SD, would you stand in front of one while the trigger is pulled? I would not.

IMO all the SD cartridges have their place so comparing them to each other is useless. Use the proper cartridge for the gun and situation.

Can we please forever dispense with the tired old "would you want to be shot with it?" argument as if that says anything about the effectiveness of the cartridge in question? I wouldn't stand in front of a pellet gun while the trigger is pulled...

As far as all SD Cartridges having "their place" and using the proper one for the situation...how can you know what situation you will be in ahead of time to have picked the "proper" gun and cartridge? If the situation is self-defense against another human being, why would there be a variance from whatever would be "ideal?" Are there SD situations where an NAA mini would be "proper" and a service size gun in 9mm-.45 wouldn't be?

My comments above have nothing to do with the .38 though. Excellent cartridge, my wife's HD gun is a S&W Nightguard, 7 round capacity loaded with Speer 135+P Gold Dots.
 
It can get the job done. No caliber is a guarantee. I am under the assumption that 38 Special or .380 ACP are about the minimum generally accepted rounds for SD. Of course .22 or .32 can also get the job done if you do your part.
 
The basic question still remains :
Is the .38 S&W Special sufficient for self defense ?
Your choice of load, bullet variant, etc.

Personally, I believe the .38 Special is not dead, but deadly !

What do you REALLY think the .38 Special is capable of, in self defense .
Now is the time to tell the truth, and share some wisdom .
OK ?

Perennial topic. ;)

Yes, the venerable .38 S&W Special remains a viable defensive caliber, especially when using some of the modern loads and bullet designs.

It only requires browsing among the ever growing number of small revolvers in the market to see that it remains popular, and is seemingly experiencing yet another recurrent cycle of popularity.

While I started my LE at the beginning of the 80's being someone who thought that only .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum were "sufficient" for "serious defensive usage", it didn't take long for me to come around and revise my thinking.

As a working LE firearms instructor I had ample opportunity to meet quite a number of experienced instructors and cops who still found the .38 Spl to be a viable choice for off-duty & secondary (backup) duty weapons. I met cops who had been involved in shooting incidents who still chose to carry .38's on their own time, even if only as an option among some other calibers they owned and occasionally used.

For the last several years of my career I carried one or another of a growing number of 5-shot J-frames on my own time, and I invested a lot of range hours training, qualifying and practicing a variety of drills with them. I continue to carry them in my retirement. Sure, I'll sometimes decide the circumstances may make carrying one of my 9's, .40's or .45's a better option, or even something a bit lighter, like one of a pair of LCP .380's I picked ... but my collection of more than half a dozen J-frames speaks to the confidence I have in them.

A couple of my J-frames are M&P 340's, which are chambered in .357 Magnum, but I typically carry them loaded with one or another of 3 different .38 +P loads I've come to favor. Faster recovery and easier controllability at speed than when using Magnum loads, but even then I'll still sometimes carry Magnums (and sometimes use them for quals, training or practice).

I have a pristine S&W 37-2DAO I picked up before retirement, made on the older aluminum 37 frame. It only sees standard pressure loads for both range and carry, as I don't want to risk shortening its service life.

One of the advantages of the .38 Spl is that a wide variety of loads and bullet types can be used. Just about something to fit anybody's needs and reasonable preferences. Loads from low pressure 148gr target wadcutters up to a variety of +P loads, and everything in between.

The venerable "2-inch snub" has received some attention by the major American ammo makers in more recent years, too, resulting in some refined JHP's that help provide for better ballistic "performance" (expansion and balanced penetration).

While I carried a variety of issued guns on-duty throughout my career - .357 Magnum, 9, .40 & .45 - I'd have no particular qualms about carrying a 4" .38 Spl revolver if I were to return to active LE duty, as long as it could be stoked with one of the assorted good quality +P loads. (Sure, I'd once again opt for a .357 Magnum and some middleweight load, meaning 125gr-145gr, if it were available, but being restricted to "only" carrying a .38 Spl wouldn't cause me to lose sleep at night. ;) )

One of my several J-frame .38's are often one my LEOSA weapons when we make road trips.
 
Are there SD situations where an NAA mini would be "proper" and a service size gun in 9mm-.45 wouldn't be?

If you can carry the NAA and not the .45. I didn't really get the spirit behind the whole "the best gun is the one you have on you" thing until I got a tiny pocket .380. All of the sudden I felt much more comfortable carrying in situations were a belt holster would be uncomfortable or impossible.
 
The 2mm Kolibri that is with you beats the 20mm anti-tank rifle you never should have put down to begin with.

My point is shot placement is everything, HAVE THE GUN, but "the gun is the least of it" FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT.
 
If you can carry the NAA and not the .45. I didn't really get the spirit behind the whole "the best gun is the one you have on you" thing until I got a tiny pocket .380. All of the sudden I felt much more comfortable carrying in situations were a belt holster would be uncomfortable or impossible.

Yep. It wasn't until a longtime friend (another retired LE firearms instructor) showed me his LCP, and let me borrow it for a little while, that I discovered the LCP had a place in my collection of CCW options. I have some pants/jeans in which the front pockets are simply too short and/or tight to conceal one of my snubs. The LCP, however, slipped into them and was concealed, and I could easily grasp and draw it.

So, now when I wear those pants, and I'm not wearing something as a cover garment to cover something else (or don't feel like belting on something bigger to wear under a cover garment), it's often one of my pair of LCP's that gets pocketed (pocket holstered).

Again, some range time for training, drills and quals were needed so I could feel confident using the diminutive LCP's in that role.
 
It's funny, my last two gun purchases are a first gen Kel-Tec P32 and an old Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag. The one that definitely is a better SD caliber is not the one that goes with me out of the house.

I do love snubbies, though. Have a 638 that's pretty comfy in a belt holster.
 
For those,who feel the .38 Special is too anemic for SD, would you stand in front of one while the trigger is pulled? I would not.
Would you stand in front of a 22 while somebody pulled the trigger?

What about a 410 loaded with birdshot?

This is not a good argument for or against a cartridge.

38 Special has been doing just fine for many years.

One thing to note is that the 38 special of old was loaded to hotter specs than today's 38 special. Still does the job just fine, but it is not the same speeds from back in the hayday of the 38.
 
One thing to note is that the 38 special of old was loaded to hotter specs than today's 38 special. Still does the job just fine, but it is not the same speeds from back in the hayday of the 38.

You are definitely correct. The old original 38 special load was a real step up from the 38 long colt it replaced. Now 38 special has beed dumbed down to where it about matches the 38 long colt of the Philippine insurrection of the early 1900s. So the +P comes along and its close but sometimes still doesn't match the full power of the original 38 special load.

Of course the 38 has had failures. It was bound to happen with just about every cop in the U.S. using this round for 70+ years. But whos to say that every "failure" of the 38 special was from a well placed shot? I would bet that the so called "failures" were more likely from fringe hits or otherwise misplaced rounds. And any caliber will fail in those conditions. Bigger and faster will never make up for poor shooting. And in a heavier gun like the heavy barrel model 10s the hottest 38s are very shootable for the average gun owner.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/One Revolver.htm

This guy is a real fan of the 38 special. This whole site is a good place spend an hour or so reading on it.
 
For those,who feel the .38 Special is too anemic for SD, would you stand in front of one while the trigger is pulled? I would not.

.

I wouldn't want to get shot with a rubber band in the face either. It doesn't mean it's good for self defense. Many, many self defense situations don't involve rational thought on the part of the attacker. A human can take a tremendous amount of punishment, at least temporarily, and especially when drugs are involved, and keep on coming. The 38spl has saved a lot of lives in the past and will continue to do so in the future. The 38 may or may not save your life. Unfortunately you won't know until you pull the trigger.
 
I'm reminded of the comment of a British officer regarding the .38-200- "The .38 is an excellent man stopper; shoot them through the skull and they drop in their tracks!"
 
Time for a reality check. All handguns are bad at stopping a determined attacker. If you don't hit the central nervous system there is no handgun cartridge that can be counted on to stop an attacker. Sure, most likely if you shoot someone they are done doing whatever it was that required you to shoot them; people don't like being shot. You can hit someone in the arm with a .22 and drop them. Or you can put a .357 magnum hollow-point through their heart and have them put five rounds into you (LAPD Officer Stacy Lim.) The best you can do is use a round that increases your margin of error- by maybe an inch. The only way you get an absolute stop is to break something that they cannot function without. The .38 Special, with the right bullet, does a pretty good job... for handgun.
 
Can we please forever dispense with the tired old "would you want to be shot with it?" argument as if that says anything about the effectiveness of the cartridge in question? I wouldn't stand in front of a pellet gun while the trigger is pulled...

As far as all SD Cartridges having "their place" and using the proper one for the situation...how can you know what situation you will be in ahead of time to have picked the "proper" gun and cartridge? If the situation is self-defense against another human being, why would there be a variance from whatever would be "ideal?" Are there SD situations where an NAA mini would be "proper" and a service size gun in 9mm-.45 wouldn't be?

My comments above have nothing to do with the .38 though. Excellent cartridge, my wife's HD gun is a S&W Nightguard, 7 round capacity loaded with Speer 135+P Gold Dots.
Well then, if your comments have nothing to do with the .38 Special it must be personal.

I will say what I want even if you don't like it and you know very well what I meant when I said every cartridge has it's place. There is no reason to try to make what I said sound stupid. Of course you can't know,what will happen in the future but I wasn't suggesting you could.

Your post offensive but unlike others I will not report you. I think you should try to discuss things in a discussion forum instead of dictating what you consider is true and not true while twisting what others say.
 
I don't know what you meant by every cartridge has it's place and I don't care if you "report" me or not. I didn't say what I said in a personal manner or as a personal attack so I'm sorry you felt that way. The would you want to get shot with it comment is just a pet peeve of mine, so that came through too much I guess.

If the problem is self-defense against a human threat. Picking something best suited to stop a human aggressor, how can every gun or loading have its place to pick the proper one ahead of time? Isn't there an objective reality that dictates some choices are a lot better than others? Now, subjectively, people can make all sorts of compromises for comfort, convenience, cost etc. but that wouldn't make certain choices the proper ones from an objective SD standpoint.

Objectively, a gun that has good sights and can be shot quickly and accurately by the user with enough power to drive a high quality HP 12"-18" in gel and expand to .50-.70 cal is about as good as it gets for handguns based on the best ballistic science and shooting results we have at this time.

I also think we may look at the SD from opposite angles. I start with the threat environment and work backwards, trying to get as close as reasonably possible to whatever would be best for the threat, not from what I want to carry and is it suited.
 
I own and routinely carry several revolvers chambered in 38 Special. In the 35 or so years I've been dabbling in defensive calibers I've never had reason to question the effectiveness of the cartridge.

I also own and carry higher capacity pistols on those days when my travels take me to unknown locations or areas with a perceived greater potential for threats.

This isn't based on my concern over the caliber, but rather the capacity of my revolvers. Sometimes we can miss under stress and people with bad intent often bring friends...

Edmo
 
I've been carrying a 38 snubby since 1968, using a variety of loads. the most recent was the Cor Bon DPX Barnes 110gr.+P.

But time marches on and I've recently replaced the 38 with an LCR 327 Fed Mag. A little more horsepower and 6 shots rather than 5.
 
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