Is .45-70 That Powerful?
- Thread starter lizziedog1
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Not if you use the same solid bullet....a 500 gr. solid fired from a 458 WM will outpenetrate a 500 gr. solid from a 45-70...always...
Keep in mind that what may be a solid bullet fired at 45-70 velocities may become deformable fired at 458 WM velocities limiting penetration.....
Pigoutultra
Member
I know that, I'm just tired of people posting nothing but the energy. No weight, no velocity, just energy, I'm just sick of it.
Ok not to be dense, but they are using 45-70, or .458 bullets? Again I have been lead to believe that 45-70 does not meet the power factor to be legal for thick skinned DG in most, if not all, African countries. So in which country, countries, are these animals being taken?
Edit:
Did a little research and found that Namibia requires a ME of 3,983 ft/lbs for Buffalo. The web site did not list Elephant.
http://www.namibiansafari.com/huntnamFIREARMS1.htm
Buffalo Bore rates their hardest hitting 45-70 at 3,597 ft/ lbs of ME.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=151
I was unable to locate the ME ft/ lbs for the Garret load. Not saying it can't be done, I am just curious as to which countries allow 45-70.
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Old Time Hunter
Member
From Leverguns.com.....
Maverick223
Member
None that I am aware of. It has been done, but in those instances it was either a special circumstance or poaching. Personally I don't believe it is a smart move, even with a heavy bullet and stout load. Make mine a .450NE or better (for Elephant anyway).Gus McCrae said:
I use a load very similar to that in my Browning 1885 Highwall, and while it is a thumper (calculated to be about 4150ft-lbs & will penetrate 3/8in. steel plate @ 100yds. with a hole ~ .80in. diameter) I don't believe it to be suitable for Elephant or Cape Buff. for that matter.Old Time Hunter (Leverguns.com) said:
Cosmoline
Member
Obviously energy is only one factor, but the claim was that .45-70 rounds could be loaded to .458 WM levels. Even setting aside the SD factor, that's simply incorrect. When you consider the bullet size and construction, .45-70 is left further behind still.
There's no doubt in my mind that .45-70 can be loaded to be a very effective THIN skinned game killer. Even a dangerous game stopper. And it has been used for elephant. But that doesn't mean it's on par with the heavy safari rifles. That's simply not what the cartridge or its rifles were made for.
DC Plumber
Member
OK, I know this has been debated before, but how can a 45 caliber bullet in a 2 inch case penetrate further than the same bullet in a 2.5 inch case, assuming they both use the same powder and barrel length?
lizziedog1
Member
Check this out.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
Apparently, according to the above link, a 45-70 will penetrate more then a 458 Winchester Magnum. I guesthe word "magnum" isn't helping much in this situation.
CSA 357
Member
the handloaded 45-70 is a pretty strong round, but its not the 458 winchester! but it is enough gun for me i shoot 300 gr jhp at around 2200 fps out of my b78 and 350 jsp at around 1900 out of my guide gun, i dont think ill ever go on a safari so i think im ok.
Ridgerunner665
Member
Cape Buffalo...I'd use my 45-70 with confidence.
Elephant...I'd rather have something bigger.
Penetration...the 45-70 will drive through several feet of bone and muscle when using heavy bullets (405-550 grains), plenty enough for ANYTHING...short of rhino, elephant, hippo...put it this way, if it weighs less than 3,500 lbs a 45-70 will kill it with authority if you put the bullet where it needs to go. (black rhino may be marginal...they are smaller than some of the others)
Legality...I don't know, never been to Africa...probably never will get to go either.
Elephant...I'd rather have something bigger.
Penetration...the 45-70 will drive through several feet of bone and muscle when using heavy bullets (405-550 grains), plenty enough for ANYTHING...short of rhino, elephant, hippo...put it this way, if it weighs less than 3,500 lbs a 45-70 will kill it with authority if you put the bullet where it needs to go. (black rhino may be marginal...they are smaller than some of the others)
Legality...I don't know, never been to Africa...probably never will get to go either.
DC Plumber
Member
OK, so then the 458 win mag is more powerful than the 458 lott?
I'm not a scientist, but doesn't more fuel equate to more power?
I'm not a scientist, but doesn't more fuel equate to more power?
Ridgerunner665
Member
No...the 458 Lott has a tad more power then the Win Mag. (not much, but a little)
Maverick223
Member
.45-70Govt.=4200ft-lbf; TKO:57.0 (at best, well above any specifications)
.458WM=5500ft-lbf; TKO:72.0 (on the high end, within SAAMI specs.)
.458Lott=6000ft-lbf; TKO:75.0 (on the high end, within SAAMI specs.)
^Anyone else see a problem here?...they aren't nearly as close as some might believe...particularly the one on top.
Don't get me wrong the .45-70Govt. is an outstanding cartridge, on of my favorite and when loaded properly is suitable for any quarry without crossing an ocean, but lets not make it out to be something that it's not.
.458WM=5500ft-lbf; TKO:72.0 (on the high end, within SAAMI specs.)
.458Lott=6000ft-lbf; TKO:75.0 (on the high end, within SAAMI specs.)
^Anyone else see a problem here?...they aren't nearly as close as some might believe...particularly the one on top.
Don't get me wrong the .45-70Govt. is an outstanding cartridge, on of my favorite and when loaded properly is suitable for any quarry without crossing an ocean, but lets not make it out to be something that it's not.
lizziedog1
Member
Velocity alone does not equal penetration. I am not a scientist, but this is how it was explained to me.
Go up to a door of a bank vault and hit with your hand as hard as you can. You know what is going to happen. The door won't move much and your hand will be soar. Now take your hand and push on the same door. Now the door moves and your hand is fine. Your hand has the same mass and weight whether you swing it at the door or slowly push against door. In fact, swing your hand would produce more kinetic energy stiking the door. Yet, the slow hand moves the door.
Or step on the first step of a swimming pool. Lean forward until you hit the water with your front. You will sink. Now climb on a board twenty feet above the same pool and try the same stunt. You will hit the water with much more velocity, but the results will be much different. You won't penetrate as deeply into the pool and everyone will turn and look at the belly flopper.
Again, read the link I posted above. According to that link the 45-70 will even out-penetrate a 460 Weatherby.
To be honest, it seems counter-intuitive to me. But that article claims that repeated experiments keep showing the same results.
Maverick,
Where did you get numbers?
Go up to a door of a bank vault and hit with your hand as hard as you can. You know what is going to happen. The door won't move much and your hand will be soar. Now take your hand and push on the same door. Now the door moves and your hand is fine. Your hand has the same mass and weight whether you swing it at the door or slowly push against door. In fact, swing your hand would produce more kinetic energy stiking the door. Yet, the slow hand moves the door.
Or step on the first step of a swimming pool. Lean forward until you hit the water with your front. You will sink. Now climb on a board twenty feet above the same pool and try the same stunt. You will hit the water with much more velocity, but the results will be much different. You won't penetrate as deeply into the pool and everyone will turn and look at the belly flopper.
Again, read the link I posted above. According to that link the 45-70 will even out-penetrate a 460 Weatherby.
To be honest, it seems counter-intuitive to me. But that article claims that repeated experiments keep showing the same results.
Maverick,
Where did you get numbers?
Maverick223
Member
No, bullet construction and sectional density has the most impact on penetration (velocity just helps it along). When you compare to a bullet that affords those critical features you can discern a significant difference with a change in velocity.
The link doesn't compare apples to apples. Put a solid in the .460Wby and it will handily best the little .45-70Govt. With non-deforming/fragmenting/yawing projectiles the faster one ALWAYS wins, physics proves that. These tests are most often performed by folks that are trying to sell something (generally cartridges) or prove a point...a unbiased test would undoubtedly prove otherwise. Then again the folks at Woodleigh, A-Square, and Holland & Holland have little to prove, as their bullets and cartridges have been performing as designed and intended on actual lg, DG for decades.
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lizziedog1
Member
Remember Silly Putty? You could easily mold it and stick a finger in it. But if you smacked it with a hammer nothing would happen.
Maybe you are right, other cartridges will out-penetrate a 45-70. Will you please post a link to prove your point?
In the link I provided, the bullet used for all the cartridges was the same, a Hornady 500 grain solid. It was comparing oranges to oranges.
Maybe you are right, other cartridges will out-penetrate a 45-70. Will you please post a link to prove your point?
In the link I provided, the bullet used for all the cartridges was the same, a Hornady 500 grain solid. It was comparing oranges to oranges.
lizziedog1
Member
I am going to type this much slower. And in bigger print.
In the link posted above, the same exact bullet was used to compare the penetration of the different cartridges.
You can argue that their test is invalid for any other reason. But not on this particular test.
Again, provide evidence that the above link is wrong. Don't just say you know its wrong. In court that is considered hearsay, doesn't count.
lizziedog1
Member
Talk about not comparing apples to apples!
lizziedog1
Member
To be honest, I don't fully understand it either. I'll talk to our science teacher tomorrow. He is a physics whiz. Maybe he can explain this to me in simple English.
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