Is 6 Shots Enough?

[Pete D.]

Do I carry a gun? Yeah, I do. A G36 six rounds. No extra mags. But....not in NYC where I spend about half my time.
About guys with friends who like to pick on others....no doubt true. One doesn't find that kind of people just anywhere.....maybe it is a function of aging but I have, as I said, learned to stay away from places and times that are apt to attract guys like that.

 

[beag_nut]

Half-jokingly, I think there should be a universal phrase, something along the lines of "time-out" whereby one could be allowed to reload as many times as wanted, up to and including a 50-round drum, during a fire-fight. Surely we wouldn't want to learn how to aim, huh?

 

[NG VI]

Surely we wouldn't want to learn how to aim, huh?

Personally I'd rather not be stabbed to death or overpowered while assuming a decent firing position and carefully planting a glob of metal into an attacker's head.

I'd rather put all of my effort into not being killed, and putting a couple of rounds as needed in the right direction might be all I can do while fending someone off. I might find that I don't have time to aim carefully enough to neutralize the central nervous system, and that I have to settle for putting a few wound channels through my attacker to buy a little more time and a little more of his fighting ability.

Personally I'm not likely to worry too much about the capacity of a gun I'd be carrying, but at the same time, disparaging someone else's carry choice because they include rounds on deck as a part of the pros and cons is a little ridiculous. More shots is always going to be better than less shots, all else equal.

Everything isn't equal, and there is a point where you're sacrificing daily comfort or shooting ability or whatever, but that point certainly doesn't occur between five rounds in a carry gun and twelve or fifteen rounds in a very slightly larger carry gun.

Lots of very size efficient pistols carry 15 rounds in the magazine, it isn't like the Glock 19 or FNP-9M or CZ PCR are especially bulky or difficult guns to carry. You can't toss them in your sweats pocket, but not everybody has "comfort while dressed in nothing" as their primary concern when picking out a self defense gun. If you are dressed in 2012 presentable attire, not including skinny jeans, you can get a good holster and conceal any reasonably sized gun without much trouble.

It's just too easy to spend another $40-100 bucks on the other half of your carry setup and be really comfortable and happy with any of the myriad subcompact/compact/midsize guns available today to act like carrying more than a J frame is a sign of mental illness or lack of shooting ability.

I'd be a much more capable shooter with a Glock 19 or 26 sized auto than any of the pocket autos or small revolvers too. Carrying a gun that can hold more rounds doesn't mean you are carrying a less capable or less accurate gun. They're generally much easier to shoot well. The extra rounds are a function of size and design, not performance.

 

[scaatylobo]

Ng vi

well spoken and spot on as to content too.

I am of the firm opinion [ having been 'there' ] that if you ever NEED your gun and you have to think about how many rounds and how many perp's = you are in a VERY bad place.

I do not EVER want to be in 'that' place again.

I edc a G-23 ,spare mag [ or 2 ] and a BUG.

And yes that is if I do not expect trouble.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I consider 5 and up enough rounds but anything under 10 should have a reload. That's my viewpoint.

 

[GBExpat]

For me, 6 shots is enough ... but rather than carry an only partially filled magazine, I carry 8.

 

[PT92]

would this be enough?:

A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.

I've felt a little "lacking in capacity" lately, so I've added the G26 as backup. Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?

If my primary concern was 'capacity' as in your case, frankly I would carry a semi as the primary with one or two spare mags (unless your lack of confidence in the 9mm round precludes such). If the revolver will absolutely be your primary, just carry a couple of speed loaders (provided you are proficient or they will be of little use under stress) with your BUG.

-Cheers

 

[JERRY]

you will run out of time before you run out of ammo.

as a private citizen who is not required to go in harms way, a 6 shot revolver with one reload is plenty.

a S&W model 64 snubby is an awsome gun.

 

[skeeziks]

Quote= "as a private citizen who is not required to go in harms way, a 6 shot revolver with one reload is plenty."

Yes, but when "Harm" finds Me and gets in My way, I want to be as well-armed as I possibly can be.

 

[Warp]

Quote= "as a private citizen who is not required to go in harms way, a 6 shot revolver with one reload is plenty."

Yes, but when "Harm" finds Me and gets in My way, I want to be as well-armed as I possibly can be.

I find it...weird.

People talk about why law enforcement has a need for this that and the other because they are required to go into harms way to apprehend/stop violent criminals. Well...who are the violent criminals targeting? US!

Apparently when the police, who probably have more training than use, and who probably have more/other tools than us, who are probably wearing bullet resistant vests, and who probably have backup much closer than us, confront these criminals they need more guns/ammo to do this than we would need to protect ourselves in the first place.

Yes, I know, the police often seek out contact and push things in order to apprehend. But still.

 

[JERRY]

Warp, if a bad guy "targets" you with a gun, chances are youre dead before you get off a shot. the bad guys robbing banks and convenient stores and so forth are looking to get away, not stand and fight with you or anybody else.

the ones that "target" random people will still do so and take out the first one or two before anybody else returns fire. once return fire is made, the fight is generally over within seconds for you or the bad guy.

i dont begrudge you wanting a wonder 9 and all that jazz. i just dont want a guy who likes and is very proficient with his K frame to leave it aside because of internet commando talk.

 

[PabloJ]

NO. The 625 is large, heavy and would be next to worthless when drawn from concealment against multiple attackers. I would dump that "Gigant" at earliest opportunity and get compact Glock in 9x19, .40S&W, 10mm or .45ACP.

 

[Warp]

Warp, if a bad guy "targets" you with a gun, chances are youre dead before you get off a shot. the bad guys robbing banks and convenient stores and so forth are looking to get away, not stand and fight with you or anybody else.

the ones that "target" random people will still do so and take out the first one or two before anybody else returns fire. once return fire is made, the fight is generally over within seconds for you or the bad guy.

i dont begrudge you wanting a wonder 9 and all that jazz. i just dont want a guy who likes and is very proficient with his K frame to leave it aside because of internet commando talk.

It almost surely won't truly be random.

Not knowing or understanding the selection process yourself doesn't mean there wasn't a selection process.

 

[deadasslast2004]

well the question in my opinion was answered years ago by 3 armed bank robbers in Los Angeles when they tok on and killed a lot of lawmen both city, state and federal with semi qauto rifles and the Law Enforcement realized 6 is NOT enough and most switched to autos or the now famous Glocks. and as Paul Harvey says AND........Now you know the rest of the story!

 

[PabloJ]

well the question in my opinion was answered years ago by 3 armed bank robbers in Los Angeles when they tok on and killed a lot of lawmen both city, state and federal with semi qauto rifles and the Law Enforcement realized 6 is NOT enough and most switched to autos or the now famous Glocks. and as Paul Harvey says AND........Now you know the rest of the story!

There is reason Glocks sell well and retain used value like Honda sedans.....they WORK. Carrying S&W 625 is like having two Glocks worth of weight with three rounds in each. Loco Maaan.

 

[jimbo555]

A high capacity glock or a six shot revolver won't do you any good against rifle toting armed robbers wearing body armor.

 

[JERRY]

It almost surely won't truly be random.

Not knowing or understanding the selection process yourself doesn't mean there wasn't a selection process.

the latest coffee shop killer in seattle is an example of randomly shooting people....his reasons needent be understood to still be classified as random. a six shot .38 revolver would have ended his spree right away had anyone not shot by surprise been armed.

 

[PabloJ]

the latest coffee shop killer in seattle is an example of randomly shooting people....his reasons needent be understood to still be classified as random. a six shot .38 revolver would have ended his spree right away had anyone not shot by surprise been armed.

I have seen surveillance videos of woman struggling with attacker over her purse and old guy who fell at gas station and could not get up. There were plenty of people around them who seen what happened but chose to walk by and be unhelpful. If you pinch your nose real hard you will feel no pain Jerry.

 

[JERRY]

If you pinch your nose real hard you will feel no pain Jerry.

i dont understand this part.

 

[JohnKSa]

At the most basic level, 6 rounds is enough IF any of the following are true:

1. You don't have to fire to end the attack.
2. There is one attacker and you need to shoot/shoot at him 6 or fewer times to end the attack.
3. There are two attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 3 or fewer times to end the attack.
4. There are three attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 2 or fewer times to end the attack.
5. There are 4 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 1.5 or fewer times to end the attack.
6. There are 5 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 1.2 or fewer times to end the attack.
7. There are 6 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 1 or fewer times to end the attack.
8. There are 7 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker less than once to end the attack.
And so on.

That's pretty simplistic and doesn't really tell us much other than what we already knew. That is: Once you are faced with more than 6 determined attackers 6 shots is not enough.

So let's get a little more realistic.

If we were to apply the common rule of thumb (assumed in the "practical" pistol shooting sports and by most handgun instructors) that each assailant will generally need to be hit at least 2 times by handgun rounds to end an attack, and assuming a 100% hit rate, that would imply that 6 shots is enough as long as the number of attackers is 3 or fewer.

Of course, nobody hits every shot they make--least of all while being shot at/attacked. Hit rates of 30% are generally considered to be fairly representative of LEO performance in gunfights. If we make the assumption that we will make hits on at attacker with 30% of the shots we fire, then 6 shots at a single attacker will net us 2 or more hits about 96% of the time if I did the math right.

If we assume 2 attackers both requiring 2 hits or more to be neutralized and a hit rate of 30%, then we can expect to achieve our goal of at least 2 hits on each attacker about 4% of the time. Put another way, based on the stated assumptions, when faced with 2 attackers, we can expect to fail to neutralize one or both of the attackers about 96% of the time with 6 shots fired.

 

[coolluke01]

^^^ Very interesting way of looking at things.

This 30% hit rate. I wonder if that is achieved with an average of one attacker or two? If that average is based on 1 attacker then I would think the hit rate would be much lower when having to transition from one target to another. More movement would tend to mean more misses.

A little while back someone posted stats on SD situation's in a particular city/state. The majority of the time there were 2 or more attackers IIRC. Does anyone remember more details of the study?

Makes me think about my G26 with 10 rounds. At a 30% hit rate that means I'm only landing 3 rounds. I wound't feel very confident about stopping and attacker by only placing 1 hit on him.

I think this should lead us to the realization that practice is the most effective thing we can do to help in a SD situation. It's not a question of how many rounds we need to carry, but instead, how well we use what we have. If I could increase my hit rate by 20% I could land 5 rounds with a 10 round mag, or 3 rounds with a 6 shot revolver.
Evaluating a gun for carry should assume the 30% hit rate. Is 2 hits enough or would you want 3? or 11? (33 round mag )

 

[Skribs]

John, Cool, interesting discussion. You also have to factor in the following, but first I'm going to round the accuracy up to 1/3, just because we all gun nuts practice more than your average non-SWAT LEO. So 2 shots with 1/3 accuracy means 6 shots per attacker.

Consider this:
1) Are 3 attackers going to let you get 18 shots off?
2) Can reloads be factored into the equation?

Also, I wonder how many LEO encounters were at longer range.

 

[Snag]

Six shots is enough. If you happen to end up in one of those worse than imaginable situations.....just think of it as a challenge.

 

[Skribs]

I'm guessing that's tongue-in-cheek Snag, but if it's life-or-death, I'm not looking for a challenge.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

unless I going somewhere I think there is going to be major civil unrest,I find my 5 shot snubbie and two speedloaders is plenty. As far as shooting distances,most shootings (85%) occur within 6 feet,(95%) occur within 7 yards.That leaves you with only 5% chance of being in a SD shooting at a greater range than 7 yards.When officers were carrying revolvers ,the average number of shots fired were 2.3 ,now with autos it's jumped.

I see people on here talking of engaging multiple assailants ,7 or more. Most LEO's go through their careers never having to draw their weapon against a credible threat let alone multiple credible threats.

A high number of officers are killed or wounded in a struggle over their own weapon or shot from ambush ,making the number of rounds in your carry handgun moot.

Being aware of your surroundings and trusting your gut feelings to remove yourself from a bad situation before it gets worse is your best defense.

In a last ditch situation where you have exhausted all other options, engage the most credible threat first.