Is a sling a good idea for a HD long gun?

[coloradokevin]

A long gun without a sling is like a pistol without a holster. What do you do with it when you need your hands for something else.

I went through this very argument years ago when my old department first fielded patrol rifles. One sergeant didn't want the policy to allow officers to deploy them indoors because "the slings will catch on things" the answer was that the military and every tactical unit you can find uses slings indoors on their long weapons and has no problem with them snagging. Then it was "the bad guy could grab the weapon while you are slung up and control you with it". The answer was a demonstration of simple retention techniques and the realization that an attempt to disarm you crossed the threshold into deadly force territory and that one would be justified in shooting at that point either with the long gun or the secondary weapon.

The advantages of a sling far outweigh the perceived disadvantages.

We've had the same growing pains with the development of our rifle program in my department. A surprising number of sergeants/lieutenants in my district were relatively opposed to the rifles being used: with a sling, in a building, on a perimeter, etc.

Most of the guys who were vocally against these deployments knew very little about the weapons system, or what it was/was not capable of doing. For at least 6 years we were carrying some version of the 55 grain Federal TRU ammo (55 grain Sierra Gameking bullet, I believe), since the brass was so incredibly worried about over penetration with the rifles. Even then, we constantly heard ridiculous statements about how these rifles would shoot through the bad guy, go through three houses, and kill the grandmother down the block. Anyone who knows the AR platform knows how ridiculous that statement sounds. We finally ditched the 55 grain bullet after an ATK wound ballistics workshop demonstrated how poorly this round performed: roughly 7 inches of penetration in gelatin, thanks to bullet disintegration.

For a while we were hearing suggestions to carry our less lethals with slings, and our rifles without. The opposite couldn't have proven to be more true. We once had an officer get tangled in the sling of his less lethal while trying to engage a suspect who was charging him with a knife. His lethal cover failed to act, and his sling from the less lethal prevented him from drawing his pistol to shoot the suspect. It almost ended really badly; almost.

My way of looking at it is as follows: When in your hands a rifle becomes your primary weapon, and gets a sling. Less lethal devices NEVER get a sling... if I need to lose that device, I need to lose it NOW. And, as you said, retention with a sling is not a problem, and works out better than retention without a sling. Any fight where a suspect is trying to disarm us is a deadly force encounter. Period.

 

[Creature]

This rifle has no 'hangups' with doorknobs...

Every rifle should have some kind of sling...even HD carbines.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I would say most, not all, but most people who are against slings on long guns are not really aware of how they're supposed to be used in combat. I wholly agree with coloradokevin. Using a sling on a combat/HD long gun is NOT like a sing on a hunting rifle. It's not just some pierce of strap you use to hang the weapon over your shoulder. I've been doing room clearing with a slinged rifle both in training and in real life for over 6 years and I've never had the sling get caught on something. Never. I have had plenty of occasions where I needed my hands for something else though. And the idea of dropping my rifle on the ground when I needed to do so is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Warp]

I would say most, not all, but most people who are against slings on long guns are not really aware of how they're supposed to be used in combat. I wholly agree with coloradokevin. Using a sling on a combat/HD long gun is NOT like a sing on a hunting rifle. It's not just some pierce of strap you use to hang the weapon over your shoulder. I've been doing room clearing with a slinged rifle both in training and in real life for over 6 years and I've never had the sling get caught on something. Never. I have had plenty of occasions where I needed my hands for something else though. And the idea of dropping my rifle on the ground when I needed to do so is pretty ridiculous.

Thank you for your input.

It's nice to see every single person with experience saying the same thing(s).

 

[Weevil]

I would say most, not all, but most people who are against slings on long guns are not really aware of how they're supposed to be used in combat. I wholly agree with coloradokevin. Using a sling on a combat/HD long gun is NOT like a sing on a hunting rifle. It's not just some pierce of strap you use to hang the weapon over your shoulder. I've been doing room clearing with a slinged rifle both in training and in real life for over 6 years and I've never had the sling get caught on something. Never. I have had plenty of occasions where I needed my hands for something else though. And the idea of dropping my rifle on the ground when I needed to do so is pretty ridiculous.

Well there's a good point.

A lot of people don't have a clue about how to properly use a sling in combat.

So do you feel that the average Joe with little or no training would be better or worse off if they used a sling on their rifle/shotgun for home defense?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Yeah, now that I'm reading through the thread, I can see there's a lot of people bringing up criticisms of slings who clearly have never used one outside of hunting season or maybe a basic GI sling 40 years ago.

No, they don't get caught on stuff.
No, you're not abandoning you're rifle
No, they don't take tons of time to put on.
No, they don't interfere with the use of the rifle.

If you just don't feel like using one, that's fine. I think you're handicapping yourself, but it's your choice. But if you're going to come on here and give advice and criticism about them, you should take the time to learn what you're talking about first. I'm not a hunter, so I don't talk about hunting guns or hunting related shooting. But you can be dang sure that I'm going to learn about it before I start spouting off nonsense on a hunting forum. A basic tenant of talking about something is you should have some knowledge about it first. Otherwise you're just spouting assumptions and nonsense.

Go get yourself a modern 1 or 2 point adjustable sling. Put it on the rifle you intend on defending yourself with, and then learn how to use it properly. Slings are basically holsters for long guns. If you're doing any sort of home/self defense, there are tons of situations where you might need one or both of your hands. Opening doors, carrying children, turning on lights, using a cell phone, pushing a barricade in front of a door, first aid, etc. Having someplace to put your gun while you're doing that stuff but still have it at the ready is just essential. If you don't think it is, you haven't thought it through. That's just truth. Just as a holster is essential for a pistol, a sling is essential for a long gun. You may need to transition to your pistol, you may need to carry your 1 year old, you may need to pull your dog by the collar, you may need to open a door or talk on the phone while holding a light. A sling allows you to release your long gun while still keeping it ready and on your person.

Mindset, skillset, toolset. It fixes almost every problem in the world

Mindset: understand the benefits of a sling/holster and the occasions where you might need to be hands-off a weapon but you need to keep it on you just in case.

Skillset: learn the appropriate use of slings and holsters and train to use them correctly.

Toolset: Pick the correct style sling and attachment method for your rifle and understand how it works and how to use it. There is a whole world of slings out there beyond the basic leather/nylon strap for hanging a gun from your shoulder.

So do you feel that the average Joe with little or no training would be better or worse off if they used a sling on their rifle/shotgun for home defense?

I was under the impression The High Road was for responsible gun owners who are aware of the necessity to obtain proper equipment, and more importantly, proper training on that equipment. We don't tell people on here "don't use a holster" because Joe Idiot keeps his gun in a shoebox under the bed or Tyrone Gangbanger just stuffs it in his waistband. On The High Road, we advise people to learn to use their firearms correctly and responsibly with plenty of training and practice. That goes for picking the right gun, how to shoot it well, knowing when and why you might need to shoot it, and how to carry and store it responsibly. Use of slings falls into that last category. Joe Idiot and Tyone Gangbanger are not on THR reading this thread. You are. You, the responsible gun owner who understands the value of training and practice.

So basically, I don't care if the average Joe would be better off. But to answer your question, yes I still think they would be better off even with no training. Human beings have 2 hands. Home defense involves more than shooting people. Things that might use up those 2 hands. What do you do with the gun when you're doing those other things?

 

[Warp]

Yeah, now that I'm reading through the thread, I can see there's a lot of people bringing up criticisms of slings who clearly have never used one outside of hunting season or maybe a basic GI sling 40 years ago.

No, they don't get caught on stuff.
No, you're not abandoning you're rifle
No, they don't take tons of time to put on.
No, they don't interfere with the use of the rifle.

If you just don't feel like using one, that's fine. I think you're handicapping yourself, but it's your choice. But if you're going to come on here and give advice and criticism about them, you should take the time to learn what you're talking about first. I'm not a hunter, so I don't talk about hunting guns or hunting related shooting. But you can be dang sure that I'm going to learn about it before I start spouting off nonsense on a hunting forum. A basic tenant of talking about something is you should have some knowledge about it first. Otherwise you're just spouting assumptions and nonsense.

Go get yourself a modern 1 or 2 point adjustable sling. Put it on the rifle you intend on defending yourself with, and then learn how to use it properly. Slings are basically holsters for long guns. If you're doing any sort of home/self defense, there are tons of situations where you might need one or both of your hands. Opening doors, carrying children, turning on lights, using a cell phone, pushing a barricade in front of a door, first aid, etc. Having someplace to put your gun while you're doing that stuff but still have it at the ready is just essential. If you don't think it is, you haven't thought it through. That's just truth. Just as a holster is essential for a pistol, a sling is essential for a long gun. You may need to transition to your pistol, you may need to carry your 1 year old, you may need to pull your dog by the collar, you may need to open a door or talk on the phone while holding a light. A sling allows you to release your long gun while still keeping it ready and on your person.

Mindset, skillset, toolset. It fixes almost every problem in the world

Mindset: understand the benefits of a sling/holster and the occasions where you might need to be hands-off a weapon but you need to keep it on you just in case.

Skillset: learn the appropriate use of slings and holsters and train to use them correctly.

Toolset: Pick the correct style sling and attachment method for your rifle and understand how it works and how to use it. There is a whole world of slings out there beyond the basic leather/nylon strap for hanging a gun from your shoulder.

 

[Warp]

I was under the impression The High Road was for responsible gun owners who are aware of the necessity to obtain proper equipment, and more importantly, proper training on that equipment. We don't tell people on here "don't use a holster" because Joe Idiot keeps his gun in a shoebox under the bed or Tyrone Gangbanger just stuffs it in his waistband. On The High Road, we advise people to learn to use their firearms correctly and responsibly with plenty of training and practice. That goes for picking the right gun, how to shoot it well, knowing when and why you might need to shoot it, and how to carry and store it responsibly. Use of slings falls into that last category. Joe Idiot and Tyone Gangbanger are not on THR reading this thread. You are. You, the responsible gun owner who understands the value of training and practice.

So basically, I don't care if the average Joe would be better off. But to answer your question, yes I still think they would be better off even with no training. Human beings have 2 hands. Home defense involves more than shooting people. Things that might use up those 2 hands. What do you do with the gun when you're doing those other things?

Just saw this edit.

Another outstanding post.

 

[Weevil]

Well that's a nice speech there RD but honestly it sounds kinda mall ninja to me.


I'm sure you convinced yourselves that a sling is just absolutely vital for the proper use of a rfle/shotgun, but you haven't convinced me it's a life or death must on a home defense long gun.

So gentlemen I agree to disagree and am not going to get a sling for my shotgun, or a laser, or a cool tactical red-dot sight, and a picatinny rail for lights or any of that other cool stuff the pro's use.

I'll just have to trust to my abilities to aim and shoot without all the proper tactical gear.



Good day to you.

 

[Warp]

Well that's a nice speech there RD but honestly it sounds kinda mall ninja to me.

I'm sure you convinced yourselves that a sling is just absolutely vital for the proper use of a rfle/shotgun, but you haven't convinced me it's a life or death must on a home defense long gun.

So gentlemen I agree to disagree and am not going to get a sling for my shotgun, or a laser, or a cool tactical red-dot sight, and a picatinny rail for lights or any of that other cool stuff the pro's use.

I'll just have to trust to my abilities to aim and shoot without all the proper tactical gear.

Good day to you.

at calling slings and lights mall ninja.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Ah, when facts are of no avail, turn to the age old tactic of insults. Fitting.

Do you carry a handgun outside your home? Do you use a holster? Do you train yourself on how to properly and safely draw from that holster? If so, why?

Do you have any children? Pets? Wife/girlfriend? Try this when you get a chance. Take your unloaded rifle/shotgun without a sling, and try to move through your home carrying your child, cell phone, flash lights, etc. Open doors, try to make a call on the phone. Use the light. Simulate an injury and think about what first aid actions you would take. What do you do with the gun.

You're convinced you don't need a sling. Ok. Go though some home defense scenarios that involve things other than you standing there and shooting at the bad guy like you're in a Civil War line of battle. See how easily you can do all of these things but still retain positive control of your long gun. Just show yourself what you can and can't do.

 

[Certaindeaf]

"Home defense" isn't necessarily hiding behind your bed waiting for a target 100% of the time. Heck, you might have to relocate to put a fire out with buckets of water or a fire extinguisher. You never know.. except that some things take two hands.

 

[justice06rr]

Well that's a nice speech there RD but honestly it sounds kinda mall ninja to me.


I'm sure you convinced yourselves that a sling is just absolutely vital for the proper use of a rfle/shotgun, but you haven't convinced me it's a life or death must on a home defense long gun.

So gentlemen I agree to disagree and am not going to get a sling for my shotgun, or a laser, or a cool tactical red-dot sight, and a picatinny rail for lights or any of that other cool stuff the pro's use.

I'll just have to trust to my abilities to aim and shoot without all the proper tactical gear

There is nothing "Mall ninja" with a properly setup sling and flashlight on a long gun.

It's actually highly recommended esp for HD, CQB, or room clearing. We are not talking about lasers, bipods, optics, etc in this thread.

It is not life and death not to have one, but you'll be regretting it when you drop that long gun by accident. Sure its your choice if you don't want one on your HD weapon. But like they say, its always good to have one and not need it, vs needing it and not have it.

 

[Sam1911]

Let's take a REAL big step back from the insults and "mall ninja" crap, guys.

-----

Personally, I really don't like a sling on a a pump shotgun (or really any shotgun). I don't find them comfortable, I do find them awkward and in the way, and -- even though I DO know pretty well how to use a sling in "combat" (...heavily overused term...) situations -- I still don't want them on my shotguns. And, my personal HD long-arm is a pump shotgun, so no sling for me.

(If I was patrolling somewhere with a shotgun, or carrying it as part of my kit on a hike or whatnot, yes, I'd have a sling on it. A reasonable compromise under THOSE conditions.)

As it happens, I do like them quite a lot on rifles, and if I was going with a HD rifle, I'd probably use a nice 2-point sling for it.

(Got no real use for 1-pointers, to tell the truth, but that's a different debate.)

All that is just my way of doing things -- no reason to get hot at each other for doing things differently. No one is stupid or a "mall ninja" for choosing differently.

 

[Skribs]

Does anyone have some good online resources on how to use a 1- or 2-point sling in an HD situation effectively?

 

[Warp]

Does anyone have some good online resources on how to use a 1- or 2-point sling in an HD situation effectively?

I don't know of any...and I never looked for any. I don't see how HD would significantly differ from the general defensive or "combat" usage. It retains the firearm/rifle.

 

[btg3]

I've been doing room clearing with a slinged rifle both in training and in real life for over 6 years and I've never had the sling get caught on something.

How much of that was in the context of home defense? I recall reading that clearing your house is not considered a good strategy for home defense. Just asking.

 

[Warp]

How much of that was in the context of home defense? I recall reading that clearing your house is not considered a good strategy for home defense. Just asking.

His comment is completely on target as far as this thread is concerned since it deals with moving around indoors (and in houses) with the sling.

But, yes, you have a very good point here. Ideally you do not ever clear your own home. Ideally if you believe somebody is (or probably is) in your home, you sit where you are, watch the door, and wait for the professionals to come do it. Even if you ARE a professional, you wait for the team of on duty professions to come do it for you.

However, there are situations for some people that potentially call for clearing your home, or moving around in your home. Maybe your children's rooms are on the other side of the house, or they happen to be on the other side of the house at the time. Maybe something goes down outside. Maybe somebody throws molotov cocktails at your house from outside. Who knows? The one thing we do know, IMO, is that it might be necessary to move around in your home, armed, and it might be necessary to use one or both hands for something other than holding onto the firearm.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

How much of that was in the context of home defense? I recall reading that clearing your house is not considered a good strategy for home defense. Just asking.

I'll clarify. I've been trained in both a military and law enforcement context for room clearing and had to use that training in real-world situations for both military and LE. I've also undertaken a number of civilian shooting schools that have involved close quarters shooting of rifles with slings as well as force-on-force training in a home defense scenario with slinged rifles. In addition to my own training at home. So far, no situations have arisen at home where I've had to use any of this training, thankfully. So most of my formal training has been in a military and law enforcement setting, though not all. And I've done a lot of scenario based training at home on my own, and not just for shooting. I've never had problems with slings. In fact, they've only helped.

Also, the training and practice has also shown me that having some sort of holster-platform for a handgun available even at home is a huge help. I don't think people realize how much of home defense doesn't involve actually shooting at a bad guy. Being able to call for help, move barricades, assist with others, provide first aid, open doors and windows for escape, etc are all essential home-defense skills. None of them involve shooting your gun and all of them involve using your hands for other stuff. Being able to stow your firearm so your hands are free while still having the firearm on you and available is simply crucial. It's not about "clearing your house". It's about getting you and your loved ones from (multiple?) positions of non-safety to one position of safety while being able to call for assistance. If you really think you'll be able to keep both or even 1 hand on your gun the whole time, you're not really thinking.

Everyone: please do yourself a favor and get off the one-track mindset that home-defense is always going to just be you standing there in your pajamas with a gun in your hand waiting for the police to arrive. You have no idea what other things will come up and how you'll have to deal with them. This become even more important if you don't live alone. If you have children, you're honestly doing them a disservice by not thinking about other possibilities and preparing for them.


Quick example: you hear your door being broken in at night. Your young child's room is down the hall from you.
How will you carry your child, stay armed, move through your house, and call for help at the same time? Difficulty: like all human beings, you have at most, 2 hands.

I'm not saying a sling is the only answer. But you need to have an answer, and you need to be preparing your mind and your gear for that possibility right now. If you're honestly sitting there thinking that if you need to defend yourself in your home, you can keep both or even 1 hand on your firearm at all times, you're not thinking things through. Your home-defense event will not always occur under ideal circumstances. You're not going to always be alone in your house, in your master bedroom, weapon, light and phone at the ready when that bad guy starts coming in. What if you're in another room? What if your kids/wife/dog are in another room? What if you get hurt? What if you need to get out through a window? What if there's a fire? What if the power is out and you need to use a light? What if you arm is in a cast from a previous injury? There's a millions what ifs that can all come into play. "Standing there with both hands on your gun waiting for the police" is NOT the only answer.

 

[btg3]

Being able to stow your firearm so your hands are free while still having the firearm on you and available is simply crucial.

Excellent point and something I've not addressed for a middle-of-the-night scenario at my home. Thanks for stretching my thinking a bit.

Given that my HD long gun is a standard 870 with 18" barrel, I'd like to see a photo with a recommended strap and attachment point.

And what's the recommendation for strapping on a handgun when you're jumping out of bed? Could jump into pants with a holster already belted on, or just a belt/holster (assuming not sleeping in the buff).

Actually, I'm ok holing up in the bedroom if there's a midnight event. CC during the day. So really my only question is the shotgun sling. In the photo posted above, I see the unused sling mounts on the rifle and think maybe the shotgun would just go the same route, but I've never seen a sling like that on a shotgun. Thanks!

 

[Warp]

Excellent point and something I've not addressed for a middle-of-the-night scenario at my home. Thanks for stretching my thinking a bit.

Given that my HD long gun is a standard 870 with 18" barrel, I'd like to see a photo with a recommended strap and attachment point.

And what's the recommendation for strapping on a handgun when you're jumping out of bed? Could jump into pants with a holster already belted on, or just a belt/holster (assuming not sleeping in the buff).

Actually, I'm ok holing up in the bedroom if there's a midnight event. CC during the day. So really my only question is the shotgun sling. In the photo posted above, I see the unused sling mounts on the rifle and think maybe the shotgun would just go the same route, but I've never seen a sling like that on a shotgun. Thanks!

For the handgun it is IMO slightly less critical since you can easily free up one hand, but still a very good idea. Consider a paddle style holster.

I'm not totally sure on the best way to go with a shotgun, I never did put one on mine (for shame). I'm sure somebody will be along with a good recommendation though

 

[btg3]

Here we go...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U9BscnJAsM

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well there are a number of options for pistols. It's actually being discussed on the THR Strategies and Tactics forum under a thread called "My new nighttime strategy".
I personally use a plate carrier because it offers protection and holds everything I might need. That might be outside someone's budget or just seem "too much". Some other options are a nice sturdy belt, like a police duty belt, with a holster, light, spare mags and such on it already. Or a pair of pants with a belt and holster already threaded through the loops.

As far as shotgun slings, that's going to depend on your shotgun style. AR-15s are easy for slings because they all have the same parts and there's a thousand different ways to attach many kinds of slings, and they all work on the same basic rifle platform. Shotguns on the other hand aren't nearly as modular. If you've got front and back sling loops, a long 2-point sling that you wear diagonally like a sash could work. Or make a circle out of the sling and attach it to the rear loop for a make-shift single point. You can even just not wear the sling while moving and just sling it over your shoulder hunting-style when you need your hands. A little slower, but it still works and you still get to keep use of your hands and your weapon. If you've got a shotgun with a AR-15 style collapsible stock, an AR-15 single point sling loop can be slid onto the tube easily.

btg3, I just watched that video you posted. Good stuff, and I like that method of attaching a sling if you've got a traditional full stock. It looks like he's basically got a single point rifle sling attached to interior side of the shotgun right above and behind the trigger. That's a good setup for traditional full stocked shotguns.

 

[Skribs]

So I have a cheap 2-point sling on one of my shotguns, and I decided tonight that I would test out both "bunkering down" behind my bed and walking through my condo (including opening one door) four times: once with my slung shotgun, once with one of my handguns, once with my unslung shotgun, and once with my airsoft AR-15 (since I don't have a real one...yet). Both shotguns have straight stocks; I do not like a pistol grip on a shotgun (used a few at the range, wasn't as good).

What I realized is that if I only need one hand, a pistol grip is far more important than a sling (be it on the pistol or on my faux rifle). I also felt more comfortable kneeling down with both pistol-gripped weapons than I did with the shotgun.

As to the sling itself, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the sling seemed to be more in the way when it was slung. With the obvious drawback of allowing unauthorized access to my shotgun, it almost seems like it would be easier just to drop it and transition. With the shotgun slung, it either interfered with drawing my pistol, drawing a mag reload, and/or was just plain difficult to get to if I needed to unsling it. This could be a training issue. Also, while walking through my condo with the shotgun shouldered, I had no problem with the tight corners. With it slung, I now have a new scratch on my door.

I'm almost thinking that for now I should just eschew the shotguns from my HD strategy (as much as it pains me to say it because I've long been an advocate of long gun for HD) and just use my handguns until I can get a rifle...and even then I'm not sure if I'd sling it.

 

[coloradokevin]

I'll add one more thing to this sling discussion while I'm thinking about it: don't over think the sling thing too much if you just want to get something on your rifle fairly quickly. You can take a conventional carry strap style sling and easily convert it to a rudimentary mono-point sling without very much trouble at all. In fact, I've been carrying my work rifle like that for 8 years now, simply because I haven't had any real functional motivation to change to a more "tacticool" type of sling. I use my rifle to clear homes, warehouses, etc. I stand on perimeters with it for hours, and I've carried it this way along with other duty-related gear without getting tangled on anything. In fact, I wouldn't deploy my rifle (for work) without a sling... you essentially become married to that firearm when it enters your hands, and without a sling you have no way to free your hands of that weapon.

For the homeowner in a defensive situation I just don't see a real problem with having a sling. Professionals in LE and military uses deploy rifles with slings everyday, and their deployments often involve more complex movements through tough environments than the average homeowner would face during a break-in. Moreover, the homeowner is often best served by staying in one room/section of the house and waiting for the trouble to come to them... you're always better off setting an ambush than you are in being ambushed.

I've added a picture of my work rifle, exactly as I deploy it. On days off it lives in the closet next to my bed. The setup I use is pretty clean and simple. I have an Eotech holographic sight on the rifle, along with flip-up irons to back that system, a simple carry strap-turned-monosling, and a bright light without any fancy wires or pressure switches attached to it (I've had too many of those fail on me). For me this system works well, and isn't too complex that I have to worry about many problems while using it. I simply added a sling attachment point at the back of the receiver to facilitate using the single point sling as I wanted. With this sling I can shoot from strong side, weak side, or in any conventional position (standing, kneeling, seated, or prone). I even left the tails on the sling in case I want to adjust it to be a bit longer for winter clothing or heavier/thicker vests during deployments.