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is a tokarev really at risk to blow up?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by c919, May 6, 2009.

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  1. c919

    c919 Member

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    i hear a lot of people saying "dont buy a tokarev! those will blow up if you use the hot czech loads. get a cz52 instead."

    so here are my questions:

    1. is it that hard to find ammo that is not the "hot czech rounds"?
    2. with a 7.62x25mm do you really want a hot round? i mean isnt overpenetration the main concern with this round?
    3. and surely tokarevs cant be too bad of a gun if there are still so many circulating in decent condition, right?
     
  2. torpedoman

    torpedoman Member

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    no risk if you shoot the ammo it was designed for. The cz52 has a roller locker recoil system thar will stand a lot more pressure and hotter ammo the tokarov shoots a 30 cal mauser round.
     
  3. Hammerhead6814

    Hammerhead6814 Member

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    I've never seen a kaboom!'ed tokarev.

    I have however, read some nasty things about CZ-52's. Sometimes it's said they have lack-luster reliability, others have told me the barrels are no good (age not design).

    Not to say the TT-33 isn't a problem-free pistol. Other than the horrid quality some samples safety's have, it's a guessing game as to whether or not the rounds you use will battery or not. Some samples are almost problem-free. Others will leave you wondering.

    But between the two, the TT-33 is almost to common and to loved these days. Old_Painless on the Box O' Truth loves his. When he likes it, and it was made by the commie's, that means something.
     
  4. -v-

    -v- Member

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    Man, what is it with the glut of Tokarev threads as of late? :D

    In all fairness, a TT is a stronger firearm then a CZ-52. One of the contributing factors is a much beefier chamber on the TT. The chambers on CZs tend to be rather thin, leading to a greater possibility of a kB!

    TT-33's are notorious for how hard they are to kB! even if you intentionally try
     
  5. grimjaw

    grimjaw Member

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    Clark will no doubt be along shortly to tell you ALL about it.

    jm
     
  6. c919

    c919 Member

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    yeah there have been alot of tokarev threads lately, and conveniently im in the market for one so the info is nice. iv been putting off this purchase for almost a year and now im ready to get my tokarev but iv heard some interesting speculation that i wanted to clear up.

    so the romanian surplus rounds are safe? they seem to be plentiful and cheap.... and how about the polish rounds?

    i hear its the czech rounds that are the hot ones, but in my ammo research i have not seen any czech 7.62x25 rounds. are they the only dangerous ones for the tokarevs?
     
  7. c919

    c919 Member

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    i have read some other stuff he wrote on this round and he seems to be an expert so his knowledge be welcomed with anticipation.
     
  8. amd6547

    amd6547 Member

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    The myth that the CZ is stronger than the TT33 began long before the CZ was ever imported to this country. It has been disproved, but continues to live on in internet-land.
    The Tok has routinely been converted to rounds like the 38 super and 9x23 Winchester. It will handle any Tok ammo you find.
    The Romanian ammo is great.
    The Tokarev has decades of real world combat experience.
     
  9. harmon rabb

    harmon rabb Member

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    c919, the 'dangerous' tok rounds are supposed to the bulgarian rounds.
     
  10. c919

    c919 Member

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    QUOTES:


    "It's not that there was "SOME Czech ammo", loaded hot, all the Czech "7.62x25 was loaded hot. It was NOT an anomaly, it was the status quo. Your own source confirms that, so I don't see how you can pretend otherwise. Furthermore, the Czechs were/are not the only ones who loaded/load 7.62x25 to very different levels than the .30 Mauser.

    your sources indicate that the nominal muzzle velocity of 7.62x25 is 1650+fps, much hotter than typical .30 Mauser loadings."

    From the American Rifleman magazine, August 1995, page 44;
    "The Czech version of the 7.62 x 25 mm cartridge is based on the Soviet
    7.62 mm Type P pistol cartridge used in the TT-30 and TT-33 Tokarev, but
    Czech ammunition is loaded considerably heavier that its Soviet
    counterpart. While dimensionally similar to the 7.63 Mauser cartridge,
    inter changeability is not recommended as the commercially loaded Mauser
    ammunition is considered too light to reliably cycle the Model 52."

    the czech rounds are definitely the supposed hot rounds..... so i guess there are two out there i need to avoid. bulgarian too,huh?
     
  11. -v-

    -v- Member

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    c919: Here's the link to the original Clark thread, especially with his antics of "lets put a 9x23 in a 7.62x25, hide behind a berm and pull the trigger, hehe!": http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=22071&highlight=kb!+9x23+Tokarev I found it a very informative read, especially with the pictures of common CZ barrel fail points. More worrying the fact that a CZ-52's barrel has the thinnest chamber walls of ANY firearm in existence!
     
  12. mgregg85

    mgregg85 Member

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    A TT-33 is a lot less likely to kb than a CZ-52, both are fun handguns.
     
  13. Squeaky Duck

    Squeaky Duck Member

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    I own a Cz52. All I can say iis mine works reliably and carries well since it was designed to be carried concealed in the first place - thank the KGB for that. Look at how steamlined it is with nothing to snag on, save the front sight (nothing a touch of emery cloth can't fix).

    The only mods I made to it was a new Harrington firing pin and rollers. As for hot ammo, the roller locking mechanism handles hot loads extremely well, but it will not let you see if the load is too hot until you end up wearing the slide embedded in your noggin. So why would you NEED to use a really hot round when the tokarev round is loaded to magnum velocity in the first place?

    It all boils down to using common sense. I use standard rounds in all my guns. They work fine and I have nothing to prove.

    If you have to prove something go buy a Blackhawk ...
     
  14. wnycollector

    wnycollector Member

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    I have put 2 full 800 round tins and part of a 3rd tin of bulgarian ammo through my Polish Wz-48 w/o a problem.
     
  15. BBstacker

    BBstacker Member

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    I have one of each but I don't shoot militery surplus ammo. I use S&B, Winchster,& wolf gold only. But now a have dies to reload. One load I have using AA9 is subpost to give 1900 FPS. No I am not going there. I will keep it between 1500&1600 FPS. I am not enterested in trying to blow eather gun.
     
  16. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    "...Cz52. All I can say iis mine works reliably and carries well since it was designed to be carried concealed in the first place - thank the KGB for that. Look at how steamlined it is..."

    Huh??? It's a big, honkin' belt gun. Where did you get this info that it was designed to be a KGB concealed weapon??? The KGB isn't even Czech!
     
  17. woad_yurt

    woad_yurt Member

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    Both the CZ 52 and the Tokarev are solid, strong designs. I own both and rate them as equals, mostly. Equals, that is, if one replaces the CZ's cast firing pin with something forged. The Tok is the more refined of the two; it feels nicer.

    Although I don't think the KGB carried CZ 52s, concealed or otherwise, the CZ is easy to conceal for such a large gun. It's really, really flat for its size, as is the Tok.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2009
  18. harmon rabb

    harmon rabb Member

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    The Tok would seem easy to carry in a holster behind the back because it's so flat. The cz-82 seems it would work better in a pocket or ankle holster.
     
  19. Squeaky Duck

    Squeaky Duck Member

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    JohnnyC - maybe you should look up the history of the Cz52. Czechoslovakia was under Russian rule since the end of WWII. The Communists snatched up the Brno arms factory there and the other eastern bloc nations under their rule. That pistol was a military design, yes, but there was a lot of influence into what purpose the weapons would be used for by the Komityet Gosudarstvyennoi Biezopasnosti, aka the KGB. The original Tokarev was intended to penetrate heavy clothing. The Cz52 was intended as a complement to the Soviet PPD-40, PPSh-41,PPS-43 machine guns since they all use the same ammunition and their soldiers did not have to carry different kinds of ammo. Their intent was to have a gun that would penetrate body armor (as in a US or Allied soldier) and put you out of commission. The KGB's influence on the gun was something their secret police could carry and shoot you with that would NOT initially kill you. Their intent was to INJURE you badly enough to require going to the hospital where they would wait for you, otherwise they knew you would bleed to death within 2 or 3 days of being shot since the round has a nasty habit on going off in any direction it feels like once it penetrates the body and meets resistance like bone or hard tissue.. Read up on your history. There is a lot of info out there, if you look.
     
  20. harmon rabb

    harmon rabb Member

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    So they wanted a gun that could shoot through body armor... but NOT kill who they were shooting at?

    Why would they want you to go to the hospital? Why wouldn't they just want you dead when you were shot?

    This all sounds quite goofy to me.

    :neener:
     
  21. amd6547

    amd6547 Member

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    I'm glad you believe all that...
    Of course, there was no KGB when the 7.62x25 was adopted, there was the NKVD.
     
  22. Squeaky Duck

    Squeaky Duck Member

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    When the KGB wanted you for questioning, they did shoot if you tried to run from them. Then they probably shot you anyway. History. Read up.
     
  23. woad_yurt

    woad_yurt Member

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    Squeaky Duck:

    The Makarov was in Russian service from 1951-1991. I'm fairly sure that that was what most of the KGB carried.

    Do you have a reference for what you said above, that the Russian KGB used a Czech pistol?

    I'm a history major and am a big fan of referenced information. Please, tell us, what's the source of your info?

    PS: Wasn't the KGB formed in 1954 while the CZ 52's first year of manufacture was 1952? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what the "52" part of the pistol's name is for. Those sly KGB guys must have been really, really good to have the power to influence the design of a gun that was manufactured 2 years before the KGB even existed.

    PPS: It's always a good practice for one to consider that some people may have already "read up" before one tells them to go "read up."
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2009
  24. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    "Duck", please post some kind of a reference for your info. If there's one area where I've done alot of reading, it's the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge and the pistols chambered for it. Your assertions are news to me, and I'd REALLY like to see something to back them up.


    Hey, just noticed that this is my thousandth post!!!!!! Do I get some kind of a prize (he said, hoping for a YES).
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2009
  25. Mastiff

    Mastiff Member

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    I followed Clark's information and converted a spare 9mm Tok barrel to fire 9x23 Winchester, which is loaded @50,000+ CUP. It works fine! I wouldn't dream of firing 9x23 Winchester in a CZ-52.
     
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