Is AR quality declining since "the panic" started?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Warp said:
What are you basing your opinion on?



I'm still waiting on the links to these threads.



What recent quality problems?
Click to expand...


Nice game plan you've got there Warp. A man of few words who disagrees then burdens the other guy to come up with labor intensive proof while you don't to put forth effort.

Again, you know as well as I that very few of us here have the time and resources to do an exhaustive, comprehensive study across all brand names of QC and parts issues before and after Sandy Hook. If you do have the time then I'd like to see your statistics that things are as they always have been.
 
What makes you so sure that the quality, reputable, established manufacturers did or are doing that??
Click to expand...

Tell that to Toyota :)

It truly depends on the manufacturing process, not which company is running it. An injection mold running around the clock could care less -detail parts that take operators re-positioning them in machines, running worn out or overheated bits, currently on the 10th hour of work on Friday, etc. will definitely show a difference, four-times oversold or not. And if your process is overheated-chances are your quality system and inspectors will be too. They all work the same long hours. Again, it's a human-touch-time thing.


Not to start any shenanigans or anything- I truly do respect your opinion, Warp, and thanks :)
 
A shooter had a buffer fall apart in his rifle yesterday. It looks like there was no roll pin in the plug and locked his otherwise well built rifle up. Problem is that it was a pre-panic build.

There may be some qc issues going on, but I think overall this is the sensitivity to the current market pressure wringing out the sludge. Many are lowering their standards to buy what they can afford now or what is even available. Just because the prices are inflated does not mean lesser quality components become better.
 
Quentin said:
Nice game plan you've got there Warp. A man of few words who disagrees then burdens the other guy to come up with labor intensive proof while you don't to put forth effort.

Again, you know as well as I that very few of us here have the time and resources to do an exhaustive, comprehensive study across all brand names of QC and parts issues before and after Sandy Hook. If you do have the time then I'd like to see your statistics that things are as they always have been.
Click to expand...

Game plan? Very specific claims were made, such as all of the [supposed] threads about "my bolt exploded" on ar15.com. I am asking to see them. Substantiation of a claim, especially one as cut and dry as the existence of those threads, shouldn't be difficult.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you know. Do you not have ANYTHING at all that you can point to? Surely something led you to the perception that you have shared with us?
 
Last edited:
Do you think there could be a correlation between new users, many shooting gunshow reloads?
Click to expand...

The correlation is definitely related in part to new users.

I think the problems arrive from simple things like failing to properly clean and lubricate new firearms, failing to re-assemble them properly, or just plain 'ol bad shooting technique, even more than using cheap ammo.
 
Last edited:
Hopefully the only people who are being stuck with a lemon were the same ones screaming for the manufacturers to build more, hire more, go faster.

Just because a company has a name does not mean that it automatically is going to be a good build. Remington has been suffering from the go fast, save a penny, mentality for a long time.

And as far as I, am concerned the Marlin 39a is the biggest POS ever built, and my examples were pre Remlin days. Yet this is the example of the perfect gun.

The point I,am try to make is be very careful about brand loyalty, because in this era of not caring about anything but having a good PR person, even the snob's can be burnt.;)
 
Warp said:
Game plan? Very specific claims were made, such as all of the [supposed] threads about "my bolt exploded" on ar15.com. I am asking to see them. Substantiation of a claim, especially one as cut and dry as the existence of those threads, shouldn't be difficult.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you know. Do you not have ANYTHING at all that you can point to? Surely something led you to the perception that you have shared with us?
Click to expand...

I could pull up threads here and there but what good would it do? I cannot prove conclusively that quality went down among some vendors during the panic buying spree nor can you prove your claim that everything is as it was.

If we wanted to waste everyone's time we could drop in links all day but it wouldn't be a large enough sample to prove yea or nay. Unless you have access to normally undisclosed information from all AR vendors all you or I can do is state our perception of what's happened this year.

I think many vendors scrambled to find new sources for parts and some were bitten with lower quality parts. Many buyers don't shoot enough to notice the difference (which would strengthen your argument) but there still is a difference in quality. Vendors want to sell something, thus there very likely could be a lower quality source of parts and new hires assembling as fast as they can. The BCG sold by brand A in March might not be as good as what they sold in Oct.

Finally, are you saying I made claims that bolts exploded? Show me where I said that. And remember, you made a claim too but I don't see you bearing much burden. And "game plan" - yeah I see it. You force your adversary into a war of words where they waste the most time. Your turn to type.
 
Quentin said:
I could pull up threads here and there but what good would it do? I cannot prove conclusively that quality went down among some vendors during the panic buying spree nor can you prove your claim that everything is as it was.

If we wanted to waste everyone's time we could drop in links all day but it wouldn't be a large enough sample to prove yea or nay. Unless you have access to normally undisclosed information from all AR vendors all you or I can do is state our perception of what's happened this year.

I think many vendors scrambled to find new sources for parts and some were bitten with lower quality parts. Many buyers don't shoot enough to notice the difference (which would strengthen you argument) but there still is a difference in quality. Vendors want to sell something, thus there very likely could be a lower quality source of parts and new hires assembling as fast as they can. The BCG sold by brand A in March might not be as good as what they sold in Oct.

Finally, are you saying I made claims that bolts exploded? Show me where I said that. And remember, you made a claim too but I don't see you bearing much burden.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about "conclusively proving" anything? I asked what you were basing your opinion/perception/statements on, because I wanted to see for myself, and come to my own conclusion. I reckon other people would be interested for the same reason. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach from what you have given is that you pulled it out of thin air, or maybe you mis-interpreted or mis-remembered or were otherwise confused about what was going on.

A different poster said those threads existed. Some quotes/clips from that stuck in some confusing places/posts above.
 
Last edited:
Warp said:
Who said anything about "conclusively proving" anything? I asked what you were basing your opinion/perception/statements on, because I wanted to see for myself, and come to my own conclusion. I reckon other people would be interested for the same reason. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach from what you have given is that you pulled it out of thin air, or maybe you mis-interpreted or mis-remembered or were otherwise confused about what was going on.

A different poster said those threads existed. Some quotes/clips from that stuck in some confusing places/posts above.
Click to expand...


Thank you for admitting that I didn't post those threads. But I don't appreciate your insults.

You get around as much as I do and have already come to your own conclusion as have I. I was wary of buying much lately due to the issues of low supply from my favorite vendors. My only substantial recent purchase was a BCG that I described in the very first reply in this thread. Otherwise, I have to go with credible reports in the forums. Again I say credible. Well written reports that aren't likely to be misunderstood, if that does worry you.

ETA:

Apologies to the OP, I'll back out now, you certainly want others to give their opinions.
 
Last edited:
Quentin said:
Thank you for admitting that I didn't post those threads. But I don't appreciate your insults.

You get around as much as I do and have already come to your own conclusion as have I. I was wary of buying much lately due to the issues of low supply from my favorite vendors. My only substantial recent purchase was a BCG that I described in the very first reply in this thread. Otherwise, I have to go with credible reports in the forums. Again I say credible. Well written reports that aren't likely to be misunderstood, if that does worry you.

ETA:

Apologies to the OP, I'll back out now, you certainly want others to give their opinions.
Click to expand...

Have there been any of those?

If so, links?
 
has the AR declined in quality since the panic? I do not know about that but the quality of gun owners has declined since the panic
 
Warp said:
Have there been any of those?

If so, links?
Click to expand...

Good grief, you never give up. Where are your links to corroborate your claims?


Warp said:
... The only reasonable conclusion I can reach from what you have given is that you pulled it out of thin air, or maybe you mis-interpreted or mis-remembered or were otherwise confused about what was going on...
Click to expand...

Yeah, right, that's the way you treat folks who disagree with you. I've seen how you operate over the last few years. (And I bet the guy who bought a $1900 C-15 from you a couple months ago just loves you. If you got that. Hey was that C-15 the same as ones from last year?)

Anyway, maybe I do have alzheimer's. After all it has been quite a few years since Uncle Sam handed me an M16 and malaria pills and sent me out in the jungle. You ever served your country?

Again, sorry to the OP, you don't need this so I'll bow out and let the guy at the Enterprise conn have the last word. I hope others will continue your discussion.
 
Quentin said:
Good grief, you never give up. Where are your links to corroborate your claims?
Click to expand...

My links?

Here they are.

Every single link to every single post or thread I have seen indicating a drop in quality since the panic:

" "

Nothing at all to report.

Asking somebody to prove a negative. You should know better than that. lol

Quentin said:
Yeah, right, that's the way you treat folks who disagree with you. I've seen how you operate over the last few years. (And I bet the guy who bought a $1900 C-15 from you a couple months ago just loves you. If you got that. Hey was that C-15 the same as ones from last year?)

Anyway, maybe I do have alzheimer's. After all it has been quite a few years since Uncle Sam handed me an M16 and malaria pills and sent me out in the jungle. You ever served your country?

Again, sorry to the OP, you don't need this so I'll bow out and let the guy at the Enterprise conn have the last word. I hope others will continue your discussion.
Click to expand...

$1,900? A couple months ago? Your memory is a little fuzzy. You might want to go check your facts on that one.

BTW: The market and the buyer decide prices. I put that rifle on Gunbroker and it went for what it went for. It could have gone for more, if I'd bypassed the "buy it now" option, which artificially caps the price of the item and prevents it from going for as much as it possibly could. I do find it amusing that you are all the way to the bottom of barrel. First asking me to prove a negative, now attempting to personally attack me, in lieu of supporting your position, because I sold a rifle on Gunbroker at the height of the panic. lulz. That's a good one. No way somebody who sold a complete AR15 type rifle in January could possibly have any idea if the recently built rifles are suffering in quality compared to the ones from before. lulz.

Edit: Almost forgot...the buyer of that rifle gave me awesome A+ feedback, with a nice long explanation of why he was very happy with me as a seller. Since you seem to care.
 
Last edited:
Warp said:
My links?

Here they are.

Every single link to every single post or thread I have seen indicating a drop in quality since the panic:

" "

Nothing at all to report.

Asking somebody to prove a negative. You should know better than that. lol...
Click to expand...

Cute


Warp said:
...
$1,900? A couple months ago? Your memory is a little fuzzy. You might want to go check your facts on that one.

BTW: The market and the buyer decide prices. I put that rifle on Gunbroker and it went for what it went for. It could have gone for more, if I'd bypassed the "buy it now" option, which artificially caps the price of the item and prevents it from going for as much as it possibly could. I do find it amusing that you are all the way to the bottom of barrel. First asking me to prove a negative, now attempting to personally attack me, in lieu of supporting your position, because I sold a rifle on Gunbroker at the height of the panic. lulz. That's a good one. No way somebody who sold a complete AR15 type rifle in January could possibly have any idea if the recently built rifles are suffering in quality compared to the ones from before. lulz.

Edit: Almost forgot...the buyer of that rifle gave me awesome A+ feedback, with a nice long explanation of why he was very happy with me as a seller. Since you seem to care.
Click to expand...

Fuzzy? How about this link. You asked for links, remember? Took a while to find but I remembered it. You were quick to gouge your fellow forum members. Is that The High Road? Also you initiated the attacks against two members in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=696338

Warp said:
For sale: One Bushmaster Carbon 15 rifle, NIB, with red dot site and one magazine.

FTF local cash sale to GA resident only. I am located in northeast metro Atlanta (think Lawrencville) .

$1,900
Click to expand...
 
Quentin said:
Cute




Fuzzy? How about this link. You asked for links, remember? Took a while to find but I remembered it. You were quick to gouge your fellow forum members. Is that The High Road? Also you initiated the attacks against two members in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=696338
Click to expand...

It sold for $1,399 with free shipping. ;) And the buyer was very happy. :cool: But hey, it's cool that you can take the 20/20 vision of hindsight and proclaim that a transaction between two people you don't know made one unhappy, based on nothing. Based on nothing. Sounds familiar. Oh, another BTW...I opened the auction at a price that, had it sold there, would have had me LOSING money. Since you seem to care so much about that, thought you ought to know.

But hey, I guess you have a point...nobody who took the risk of selling a complete AR in late January, not knowing if it would be replaceable in the retail market in the future or not...could possibly have a clue about the quality of recently manufactured rifles vs somewhat-recently manufactured rifles.

When your argument has nothing to it, resort to random unrelated personal attacks and name calling. It's the internet after all. lulz

PS: I didn't initiate any attacks. Claims were made, I asked for verification/substantiation/links. Pretty standard operating procedure, well, pretty much everywhere. I'm sorry you are so offended by the fact that you were unable to provide them that you drug us into a page long back and forth where you try to find other, unrelated topics on which to insult me, hoping it will get us off topic and/or get the thread closed. No better way to get out of supporting statements than by dragging things helplessly off topic and/or getting a thread closed, amiright?
 
Last edited:
After all he back and forth, I'm with Warp on this. I have been over at ar15.com a bit, and I haven't seen any marked increase of kaboom threads. A kind of a hypothesis was made by the OP concerning AR quality, someone posited that there was a bunch of kaboom threads, Warp asked for the cited threads. It coulda/shoulda ended there. Without that... or some other verifiable trend of declining quality of some kind... this thread is pretty much a pointless waste of time. So, unless someone can come up with some kind of evidence of declining quality, the answer to this thread can be summed up:


No.
 
I've been watching ar15.com, m4carbine.net. THR (rifle forum), and Glock Talk (rifle and black rifle forums) as well as the firearms threads/sections of some non-firearms sites, and I haven't seen anything different than usual.

Sure, companies like PSA mess things up from time to time, and have always had questions about their BCG's/Bolts (esp the ones sold stand alone and not as part of a rifle or an upper)...and then there are outfits like rguns... but it's kinda been that way all along.
 
I'll go ahead and tip part of my hand, since it doesn't seem that anybody else is going to bring it up:

Here is an "exploded bolt" thread from ar15.com, from February.

The bolt manufacturer in question....Joe Bob Outfitters. I don't know about you guys, but Joe Bob's isn't the place I would go looking for a quality, reliable, reputable bolt...before, during, or after the panic.

And I'm still not even sure what they were made of. Certainly not the HPT/MPI Carpenter 158 that a GOOD AR bolt should be made from.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/603032_Joe_Bob_s_Cera_plated_M16_BCG______.html&page=1
 
Warp said:
I'll go ahead and tip part of my hand, since it doesn't seem that anybody else is going to bring it up:

Here is an "exploded bolt" thread from ar15.com, from February.

The bolt manufacturer in question....Joe Bob Outfitters. I don't know about you guys, but Joe Bob's isn't the place I would go looking for a quality, reliable, reputable bolt...before, during, or after the panic.

And I'm still not even sure what they were made of. Certainly not the HPT/MPI Carpenter 158 that a GOOD AR bolt should be made from.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/603032_Joe_Bob_s_Cera_plated_M16_BCG______.html&page=1
Click to expand...

"Exploding bolt" and kaboom threads aren't the only indicators of a decline in quality of some AR makers. Most issues are more subtle and may not draw a complaint, especially from a panicked novice who bought an AR. Anyway, you can't prove your point nor can I since we don't have access to hard data from many manufacturers.

Oh, you never answered when I asked if you served... But you're quick to insult a vet as you preen in front of your groupies.

ETA:

gunsrfun1, I think you're wise to be concerned about AR quality right now and until things sort themselves out over time. Odds are you'll be fine with known high quality brands but we just can't be sure about every manufacturer, even many popular ones. Though it's always a good idea, I'd certainly inspect today's new ARs very carefully. Good luck with your future purchases.
 
Last edited:
Enough already....I've seen better manners from 3 yr olds on the playground. Sometimes, agreeing too disagree is the best option, and since I don't see you two coming towards anything resembling middle ground, and instead drifting further apart, I think we've come to such a time...on matters of opinion, theres room for more than one view. Since no one seems to be able to provide anything along the lines of actual data, you have been reduced to an argument that offers little more than "Mine's bigger than yours" when a ruler cannot be found.
 
Oh enough. If one is going to claim x, y or z then one needs to provide citation or examples to back up their argument. That is the correct way to make an argument. Here is the issue, here is my proof. Because I said so, or I feel, or my second cousin's friend's daughter's boyfriend overheard something at a truck stop are not valid basis for an argument.

If one is unable or unwilling to provide some kind of verifiable proof to support their position then they do not have a leg to stand on. And no I am not going to go look it up. It is not my job to make your case.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top