Is Federal’s New 30 Super Carry a 32 ACP Magnum?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by jski, Jan 9, 2022.

  1. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4,006
    Looking into my crystal ball, I see many will argue that diameter matters below .355", but ceases to matter above .355". That's with the unexpanded projectile of course. Because we all know it needs to expand to 1.5X (or greater) of the original diameter, which would be.... 0.5325". And Federal only claims the expansion of their 100gr 30SC is 0.530", which is just too small because [insert pseudo science here]. That 0.0025" is absolutely critical to effectively stop an attacker.

    Solved it! This cartridge obviously cannot work.
     
  2. khegglie

    khegglie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    358
    So is this cartridge in a S&W EZ really better than the CZ 83 .380 I never carry??
     
  3. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2020
    Messages:
    2,116
    For me, I like the external ballistics of the 40S&W for a 2 legged carry weapon, but don't carry or shoot it much any more.

    I switched over to 9mm quite a few years ago now, due to the bullet technology (which can be applied to all cartridges) helped alleviate problems with the 9mm having enough expansion to not over-penetrate and generate better wound channels and energy dumps into the target of opportunity. I feel the 9mm benefited the greatest from the bullet technology, due to it solving a lot of it's inherent aforementioned issues. The 40 S&W and 45ACP didn't suffer as many of issues the 9mm did before bullet technology increased.

    Now, looking to today's bullet offerings it really seems to me that the 9mm is in the goldilocks position for 2 legged protection. With grain weights from 75gr to 170gr. with the typical offerings found in the 115gr, 124/125gr, 135gr. and 147gr, that covers great ground in providing flexibility in one's carry ammunition options. Want a fast 115gr HP at 1,350fps, or a 124gr HP at 1,250fps or a deep penetrating 147gr at 1,050fps out of a 4" barrel there is a defensive load for you. With expansion that can reach 0.70" with some loads that's really great performance no matter how you cut it.

    Maybe the 30SC can cut to the chase with all the bullet technology that has been perfected, but it's going to be an uphill battle to be sure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
    Mosin77 and Kleanbore like this.
  4. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I look forward to trying it out, I mean I don't really care for 9mm but the new micro compact guns are pretty cool, but they never offer them in anything larger than 9mm, which is just lazy if you ask me. The 30 Super Carry is new and I think refreshing because I'm just so tired of EVERYTHING being 9mm this and 9mm that. That alone makes me want one. Not only that, I hope it's a raging success.

    Sectional density is high enough that penetration for the 30 SC should be right on par with everything else and added capacity is only a good thing, right? It should recoil a little less but I don't suspect it will recoil much less than 9mm, but since many of the 9mm guys only ever treat recoil as the sole factor for it's superiority over the .40, what then of the 30 SC?

    What I find somewhat funny is that the 30 Super Carry does to the 9mm what the 9mm crowd claims it did to the .40, you know how the 9mm made the .40 obsolete because it holds more ammo, recoils less and performs acceptably? Same can be applied to the 30 SC over 9mm. To claim the 30 SC isn't as good as the 9mm would mean you'd have to admit the 9mm isn't as good as the .40, simple as that and we all know peoples egos won't let them ever admit that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,467
    That's an interesting point to ponder, but the Federal people have been working with LE and the FBI in the development of premium self defense ammunition for some time. I think it very likely that they know what they're doing.

    They have not claimed that the .30 SC will pass the FBI tests that include steel and glass barriers. They have represented it as a good defensive choice.

    My concern is the sound pressure. I haven't heard anyone describe the noise.
     
    Mosin77 likes this.
  6. somethingbenign

    somethingbenign Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Might surprise you that sometimes it is the daily activity and not lack of fitness that can cause the discomfort. Do enough crawling, bending, and climbing in a day and even a J frame becomes noticably annoying.
     
    Demi-human and chicharrones like this.
  7. RevolvingGarbage

    RevolvingGarbage Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,472
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    This is exactly what I find so interesting about this cartridge. If the 9x19 is truly as good as the slightly larger service calibers, and beats them by offering superior magazine capacity, then surely something like the .30SC is superior to the 9x19 by being powerful enough and also allowing even more magazine capacity. It’s a very satisfying drama to watch play out.
     
  8. starling

    starling Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    680
    So does a gut! Its not as much about fitness as it is girth. I hear where you are coming from though. Sometimes you just have to find new ways to carry. I certainly had to get creative with distance running while arms. Even the lightest pistol would beat the hell out of me on a run.
     
  9. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2020
    Messages:
    2,116
    Too early to tell. Wake me up when we have a 30SC that expands to 0.70" through clothing and penetrates to FBI desired levels. If they can achieve that, that is when the 30SC can start picking up some momentum.
     
  10. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2020
    Messages:
    1,411
    Or kinetic energy? :rofl:

    WindyHandsomeEuropeanfiresalamander-size_restricted.gif

    I R Physicist! :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  11. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, although in theory if they made an even longer bullet (read: heavier and slower) with a deeper cavity it could expand bigger, like how a 9mm 147 HST expands more than a 124gr HST. That said, a .312" shouldn't be able to expand bigger than a larger .355" 9mm bullet, much the same as the .40 will expand larger than 9mm and .45 can expand larger than .40. But as mentioned, it's interesting to watch the 9mm crowd claiming superiority when they don't afford the same courtesy to the larger .40 or .45 compared to 9mm.
     
  12. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2020
    Messages:
    2,116
    I agree, with your view of 9mm vs. 40 vs. 45. I just came to the conclusion previously that 9mm does what I need it to for less cost and more capacity. Which may be what people conclude with the 30SC as compared to 9mm. It won't be me though, I really like the 40S&W but felt the benefits of the 9mm by my estimation were enough to make the change.
     
    starling likes this.
  13. starling

    starling Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    680
    Wake me up when it can penetrate body armor that some medicated nut bought off amazon with a stolen credit card........ before he decided to go full blown mass shooter with a rifle in a movie theatre, parking lot, playground.... etc......... becuase life is not fair. The good old days of some pimp looking mutt holding you up with a clerk for your wallet have passed.
     
  14. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,794
    Location:
    Iowa
    But 9mm ammo was cheaper and easily available and the gun selection was larger than 40 S&W. .30SC might be adequate when it comes to performance, but it's starting out with a huge hill to climb. Anyone who thinks .30SC ammo will be competitively priced compared to 9mm hasn't paid much attention to historical prices of ammo. Economies of scale and producing millions of rounds at a time has a much bigger impact on prices than size of the cartridge.
     
    danez71, chicharrones and BreechFace like this.
  15. starling

    starling Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    680
    40s&w had a lot going for it and a bunch of things happening for it to explode... perfect timing really. The only real negative was guns not being able to handle the power and the effect of smothering out the 10mm for a while. It took me a while to come around to the 40S&W. Ruger p91 pulled me to the 40s&w because I wanted a P series in 10mm.

    30super is a really hard sell because the timing is aweful and nobody really asked for it. Not in mass anyways.
     
  16. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4,006
    All this cartridge needs to do to be successfully, is lure over all the people who were going to buy a .380ACP. And then grab a majority of those who are trying to decide between .380ACP and 9mm.

    Based on what I've seen (which independent testing may disprove), the cartridge is brilliantly set up to do that. Not only does it outperform the .380ACP in penetration whilst still getting impressive expansion for the caliber (see Lucky Gunner's .380 testing to better under it's failures), but it also gains capacity in the same size of gun.

    Recoil will obviously be more than a .380, but very likely (somewhat) less than a standard pressure 9mm. This will probably be acceptable to almost everyone looking at .380, but also pleasing to those on the fence but leaning toward 9mm for the increased performance over .380. And let's not forget, 9mm recoil is mild in service size pistols, but as the size and weight of the gun are reduced, the felt recoil is increased. What is acceptable to some in a G19, may be a little much for some people in guns like the P365 or G43.

    If it does what they say it does in terms of performance, it's a brilliant concept from a marketing standpoint. It doesn't need to beat the 9mm, it just needs to take up the space in the subcompact to pocket pistol CC market.
     
  17. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2020
    Messages:
    2,116
    This was my conjecture from the announcement. Replacement for the 380ACP brilliant. Fill the 9mm shoes, good luck not going to happen.
     
    Demi-human likes this.
  18. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4,006
    Yeah, it's not going to replace the 9mm. But part of the point I'm trying to make is that with small CC guns that could be offered in 9mm or 30SC, it may well steal some ground from the 9mm.

    As far as recoil goes: https://shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

    We can all input our own numbers and judge for ourselves.
     
    BreechFace likes this.
  19. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2020
    Messages:
    2,116
    I could see 380ACP dropping off dramatically for the 30SC upon which it's acceptance in that area of SD weapons, spill over to new shooters just choosing it for a slightly larger carry weapon for the sake of only stocking one cartridge.

    I've said it would more than likely replace my Ruger LCP in 380ACP, if a manufacturer develops an LCP like gun for it, but would fail to replace my 9mm's. I don't reload for 380ACP and only shoot it enough to stay remotely proficient with it at bad breath distances, not even on the same universe as my training with 9mm.
     
    WrongHanded likes this.
  20. starling

    starling Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    680
    If manufacturers can make it work in the pocket 380s I would be interested provided the guns can hold up. Thats going to be tough though. S&W bodyguard doublestack in 30 super would be a wicked little gun. beretta Pico is already crazy thin so there would be some room to play with as far as beefing it up. Not sure a LCP frame could take it. Ruger might have to switch to steal which they should do anyways.

    correction.... I would be very, very interested.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
    BreechFace likes this.
  21. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,777
    Location:
    Phoenix Az
    Couple things here....

    1. Where are you guys seeing the "9mm crowd" being hypocritical of the 9mm vs 30SC compared to the 9mm vs 40 argument? Everywhere that Ive seen it discussed with actual professional gun carriers, they've been pretty optimistic about it. On that point though, those type of people usually arent all in on a product that is completely unproven and frankly vapor ware at this point.

    2. The FBI ballistic protocols are a good standard for measuring bullets against each other. But if you read/watch interviews with the actual ballisticians (Lucky Gunner has a good one with the guys from Federal) it's just a tool. The real results come from real world use. There have been rounds that have looked to be awesome on paper but turned out to be "meh" in the real world. The FN 5.7 is one of them. It was supposed to be a game changer but every large SWAT team that adopted the P90 dropped them after getting in gunfights with it.

    3. From Federal's own marketing I dont think this round will perform up to the duty calibers. They did a lot of talking about how the traditional cartridges stemmed from military and LE use and that's not necessarily what's needed for CCW. I agree to some extent. They've obviously tested it against the FBI protocols as they have results for the clothing test. But that's the only one they cite. Id bet money it's because the round didnt perform well in the other tests. Whether that's important to a CCW gun is up for debate and there are arguments to be made either way. But the bottom line is that the LE market is a HUGE market for guns and if the 30SC passed the FBI protocols they would definitely be preaching it from the roof tops.

    4. There is a floor with what is really effective. A super powerful BB gun isnt going to cause the desired trauma even if it had great penetration and 1.5 times expansion. Talking with guys who have been in gunfights using the FN5.7 and HK 4.6, Id say it's somewhere around there. Anything that the doctrine is that you need to use full auto bursts to be effective is getting into the marginal territory to me.
     
    chicharrones likes this.
  22. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    4,777
    Location:
    Phoenix Az
    Just to reiterate though... Im excited for this new round. Id really consider a Glock 43 chambered in this.
     
  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,467
    The case length is too long
     
  24. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2020
    Messages:
    1,411
    The Fort Hood shooter used an FN 5.7mm pistol, I think... More than a dozen killed, thrice as many injured.
     
  25. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,261
    People are yelling about ammo supply. That is the crisis of the moment, assuming that the current POTUS does not have any Executive order surprises, eventually that will fade. At the moment the 9x19 is the better choice until they make a niche gun just for this round. I suspect Keltec and Ruger will make one. But I am waiting for a major manufacturer to come out with a gun tailored to the dimensions of the round. If so I will take a long hard look at it. If it is close to the 9x19 in down range ballistics, that is not bad and certainly better than a .380 even when the .380 is over loaded by people like buffalo bore.
    There is another 30 cal round that is super fast that I think the czechs are selling, but the cost is beyond reason. I expect it to be eventually be available in other guns. The thing is a gun manufacturer they make money from selling guns. If I have say a glock that works for me, they must offer something new that moves me to buy another pistol. Guns like a glock last for 1,000's of rounds, only a few people manage to wear them out.
    Lately I see that AR uppers that went up in price are dropping because obviously the stock exceeds demands and also the final ATF ruling on AR receivers is likely coming down in a month or few. The point is the market is a driver in the selling of new guns.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice