Is gunsmithing a dying trade?

[Lex Luthier]

Like many trades, gunsmithing is becoming something of a lost art. Someone else lamented about the loss of integrity in current industrial arts curricula, and that is a bummer. The most important responsibility I learned in shop was SAFETY. It is true that the average American student is growing up in a world of designed obsolescence, but those who are more curious and have had excellent role models know a little more about metal/ wood/ chemistry/ physics etc. and are not afraid to get their hands dirty actually making something.Youtube DIY vids are sadly replacing the direct face to face learning process that has educated and inspired what I believe to be most of us here on this forum.

I have always wanted to go back and thank my shop teachers for everything they taught me. There are still times when I am doing some task in one of my shops and can hear Mr. Blaylock's or Mr. Stephenson's voice guiding my actions. They were like uncles.

We need to be better teachers and there will be better students. After all, our tools and equipment need to go to the next generation someday.

 

[LeonCarr]

It seems like with the current economy and state of world affairs you can make more money with a tech school degree or certificate than a four year degree, and not have mountains of debt in the process. In my senior year of high school I had the choice of go to college and get a degree or go to a tech school for automotive and diesel mechanics. I went to college, and a good friend of mine went to tech school. He makes 3 times as much money as I do, loves to go to work everyday, and has traveled the world working on diesel engines, mostly diesel generators.

To stay on topic, the really really good gunsmths I have seen are always busy and some of the custom gunsmiths are backlogged for years. Here locally I have seen a renewed interest in the machining/machine shop type trades, and several community colleges are adding manual and CNC machining classes to their curriculums.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[beatledog7]

This trend is being driven by a lot of things, and chief among them is that the apprentice system that worked so well in these and other crafts for centuries has almost completely died off.

There is in modern society no tolerance for having a person learn a trade or craft by tying himself to the hip of a master and becoming an "unpaid" learner. The privilege of obtaining years of personal, hands-on instruction from a master used to be considered compensation enough, but now that "apprentice" would expect to get $18/hr, health insurance, and a pension plan.

 

[oneounceload]

I also see more and more gunsmiths who, like doctors, are becoming niche-market specialists - might only work on 1911s, or only on SxS shotguns or only on Colt revolvers or similar; and just like doctors, the old GP and general gunsmith seem to be fading into obscurity where in the gun trade you will soon have general parts changers and specialists who can take a block of metal and create something.

Besides the educational aspect mentioned in an earlier post, the loss of most of the US tool and die maker trade just exacerbates the issue further

 

[SleazyRider]

It's not all bad news ...

If you, like myself, don't have a "real" gunsmith in your neck of the woods, you might want to give this feller a try: http://www.handgunrepairshop.com/ . His name is Doug Bates, and he's not afraid to make a new spring or part for an obsolete revolver, replace a worn-out hand, or raise a dent in a shot gun barrel. I've never met him in person, but he's worked on several vintage revolvers for me that were beyond the experience level of local "gunsmiths." (And I use quotation marks because mounting a scope or installing a set of sling swivels does not make you a gunsmith.) He's honest and competent, and what I would call a genuine gunsmith.

 

[David E]

Fundamentally yes... the (internals of a Glock and 1911) are the same... maybe different applications... but the basics are the same...

Do you know how to cut a 1911 extractor for reliable feeding? Do you know what the proper tension on it should be? Do you have the tools to consistently adjust extractor tension? Or the tools to test it after? Compare that to dropping in a new one in a Glock in about a minute or so. And that's just the "simple" extractor.

I've never heard of anyone hos gotten their steel frame checkered... theh again im new to the game..

I've had several checkered or stippled. Makes a big difference.

i can do just about anything myself with a semi...

Do you have the skill and proper tools to do a reliable 3# trigger pull on a 1911? How are you with a checkering file? How about installing a match barrel?

Revolvers themselves are being passed over in favor of plastic high capacity semi autos, so 'smithing revolvers is dying out.

If 1911's disappeared and Glock made their frames without that infernal hump, 95% of gunsmithing needs would evaporate.

Guns used to be made lacking many features that are par for the course today. To get those features, you needed a gunsmith. Now, you buy the gun that has those features from the factory.

 

[X-Rap]

People in general are just not willing to lay out the cash for hand fitted parts and the amount of labor that it takes. A real craftsman deserves $50+ for his time and skills plus there must be overhead attached for his shop and profit if he works for another man.
I've never had checkering done but I've done some file work in my time on non gun work and also seen some nice checkering jobs so I have a sense of what that is worth and it aint cheap.
A real smith will have a mill and lathe and be able to make and heat treat any part one might need but today there are so many quality options that are available directly from the factory that I can't imagine someone picking that as a profession given the time commitment and cash outlay to set it up properly.

 

[YZ]

Not the trade, only the style. One man shops are going, corporate custom shops moving in. Industrial revolution.

 

[Sunray]

"...taught in vocational schools all around the world..." Nonsense. Only the U.S. has such courses.
There's no money in it either. Any of the guys coming out of the assorted Community Colleges with big debts, if they can find a job, are working at minimum wage. You can't live on minimum wage, so they're forced to go elsewhere. That is why there are fewer smithies.
"...the lack of experienced techs..." Yep. And none of the companies that whine about not being able to find staff will even think about having apprentices. There are no entry level jobs for any kind of technician. Nobody wants to train the FNG's.
"...steel frame checkered..." I know a guy who did that. Mostly for his buddies. It's extremely time consuming hand work that nobody wants to pay what it's worth when done right.

 

[X-Rap]

How many guns designed in the last 20 +- years have been done so with the minimizing of hand fitting as at least a part of the intent or outcome?
The 1911 is about the last of the dinosaurs in which you can order frame, slide, barrel and have the gun hand fit to your specifications. What's that cost above parts? $1000-$1500?
I've never had a hand built pistol and given the number of pistols that are as close to flawlessly reliable that run under $1000 and many that are either side of $500 I doubt I ever will.
These guns may not be 1911's but they are proven with reputations of quality and reliability that is probably unheard of in the history of man carrying weapons plus they are serviceable for the most part by the people who are carrying them.
The same can be said for many of the modern long guns so as has been stated, the future for "Gun Smithing" in past terms is probably dead aside from the niche builders who appeal to those with either a bucket list gun or a lot of disposable income.

 

[klausman]

+1 Steel Horse and Lex. I learned a lot more than I appreciated at the time from Schuyler Burris, a shop teacher who really knew his stuff, and could pass it on.
I think all the focus on "every kid to college" is misplaced. Trades like wood and metal smithing and mechanical "arts" are every bit as important, if not more so.

 

[lastofthebreed]

Gunsmithing a dying trade.

I was thinking the other day how there just doesn't seem to be a jack of all trades gunsmith anymore, seems as if they are all "custom" smiths. Pity.

 

[Murphy4570]

Like stated, gunsmithing is just a subsect of machining. Machine shops in general are dying out. It is hard nowadays finding a competent enough shop to mill a set of cylinder heads. They are all closing down.

I blame it on the death of industry in America in the last 50 years or so. We are no longer a major industrial power in the world. The "arsenal of democracy" has shuttered its doors.

 

[X-Rap]

If I were considering entering the trade today I would consider the watchmaker/repairman. We all pretty much carry time pieces but what percentage of us carry one that is repairable and how many when they want a new one want it made by hand by an individual?
The same could be said for shoemakers and tailors though I suspect in some locals they are still in demand.

 

[Zoogster]

The low cost of the item itself, the multitude of replacement parts for many popular firearms which can be purchased online, and what a gunsmith would have to charge per hour to make a living all contribute.

The primary work for an actual skilled gunsmith these days would be a niche dealing with high end guns worth so much that a few hours of a gunsmith's time is not a big deal. The market for such guns is relatively limited in the US, and the average person is more likely to have guns that have a low overall price tag and are modular and cheaper to just buy a replacement part for.



There was once businesses that specialized in repairing electronics like old TVs and VCRs all over the place too. Many of them have similarly disappeared. They were not replaced by flat screen and DVD repairshops.
What they would cost per hour, plus the cost of maintaing the business, a storefront, and/or paying employees just doesn't add up and the margins are too close.



To make an average living, especially if paying for a storefront, a business needs to charge more per hour than the market is willing to pay.
To make an above average living worth the extra liability, possible court costs, as well as financial risk in a market with so many changing and constant legal issues, they would have to charge even more.



Machining takes quite a bit of time to learn and be good at. Somone who has invested the time it takes to be good enough at machining to make and modify firearms can typically find better paying work making something else.

 

[jeepnik]

Seems to be going the way of shoe repair folks. There will always be a need for a few, but the need just won't support as many as once were supported.

 

[BCRider]

It's not just gunsmithing, millwrighting, machinists or good cabinet makers. It's endemic to all the trades. And I can't help but think that it starts out in how our kids are raised.

Somewhere around the house I've got a book from the very early 50's that is called "The Boy's Book of Projects" or some such. In that book are articles on some really cool larger engine powered model airplanes (the reason I bought the book) along with articles on turning a steam engine on your dad's or the local school's metal lathe, Along with this are chapters on building your own tool box, a soap box racer and a small sail board like boat, a crystal radio, some leather work projects and a couple of model boats. The suggested age for these projects are 10 to 16 years old. The implied suggestion being that those which have gotten past 16 are ready to move on to cars and other "grown up" past times.

Compare this list of projects in just this one book to what kids do these days in terms of hand skills. Those in country environments may actually be able to do much of this stuff due to the needs of working away from towns and cities. But what chance is there for the typical city kid who's father works in an office and golfs on the weekends? Is it any wonder they grow up and enter the work force needing the most basic of training? Never mind having even the basic grounding to become a gunsmith.

And don't even get me started on the modern perception of CNC. To hear it told you'd think that it's a bloody miracle that ANYTHING made of metal was able to be produced before the early 90's introduction of reasonably wide spread CNC.

For us older types that value hand skills and that appreciate a well made metal file and good bench vise it's enough to gag a maggot.

 

[mljdeckard]

I skimmed the previous comments.

I have a lifelong friend who became a gunsmith. He found that it wasn't much fun to come home from his day job, and start working on other people's guns after dinner. He also found that most things people ask a gunsmith to do are cleaning and maintenence, or could be prevented by them. And he had a really hard time actually turning a profit.

I think that manufacturers have come a long way in making sure guns don't need to get fixed very often. And yes, do-it-yourselfers can build their own Glocks, 1911, and ARs with a little bit of guidance. I don't think gunsmiths will go away, but the craftsmanship and artistry will be a lot more rare.

 

[oneounceload]

It's not just gunsmithing, millwrighting, machinists or good cabinet makers. It's endemic to all the trades. And I can't help but think that it starts out in how our kids are raised

My grandmother came here from Scotland where she had a college degree in Home Economics. I have her original notebooks, including how to run the household with servants, budgets, and then the home repair projects including how to sew a variety of mending from socks to carpets..........simply amazing what folks had to learn about basic stuff from the early 1900s versus today's throw-it-away-and-buy-a-new-one crowd. This is what is happening with gunsmiths - no one wants to be bothered learning something that requires thought, critical thinking, and a solid, honest work ethic

 

[mljdeckard]

My grandfather was a pattern maker in a steel mill for over thirty years. He had a woodworking business on the side. When he died, my dad took his tools. When my dad died, no one wanted them or had room for all of them, so we took some odds and ends, and gave away and sold the rest. I wish I had learned more, but I wish had more skills in many areas.

 

[goon]

There are still true craftsmen who make things like replica flintlock muskets and fowlers that are as close to historically accurate as possible. I don't know what their profit margins are, but wait times for some makers are several years and their guns go for $3,000 or more. Check out some reenacting and traditional muzzleloading forums and you'll see what I mean.
Personally, I'd like to learn some of that myself... because I want to get into reenacting and I can't afford those prices!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724332

http://www.shilohrifle.com/

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/489/1

 

[Trent]

Standardized replacement parts.

That's the end game.

Can't say it's a bad thing, to be honest; sure makes things easy.

But the days of custom fits are ending.

Last gunsmithing I did was fabricate a firing pin for an old 22.

I don't count building AR's or replacing springs in Glocks gunsmithing.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I don't know about gunsmithing, there's more than a couple of very good ones with a hundred miles of here. But locksmithing? I recently retired from the business & I have to say I think it's a dying trade.

900F

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Being retired I'm playing with the idea of attending a gunsmithing school in the near future. I'm a retired LEO armorer and assembling some custom AR's these days but I know my limits and want to expand my knowledge .I'm lucky enough of not having to depend on it for a living.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Do you know how to cut a 1911 extractor for reliable feeding? Do you know what the proper tension on it should be? Do you have the tools to consistently adjust extractor tension? Or the tools to test it after? Compare that to dropping in a new one in a Glock in about a minute or so. And that's just the "simple" extractor.



I've had several checkered or stippled. Makes a big difference.



Do you have the skill and proper tools to do a reliable 3# trigger pull on a 1911? How are you with a checkering file? How about installing a match barrel?

Revolvers themselves are being passed over in favor of plastic high capacity semi autos, so 'smithing revolvers is dying out.

If 1911's disappeared and Glock made their frames without that infernal hump, 95% of gunsmithing needs would evaporate.

Guns used to be made lacking many features that are par for the course today. To get those features, you needed a gunsmith. Now, you buy the gun that has those features from the factory.

Im sure ALL of that information is on youtube. Most likely its also in this forum.