Is it abnormal for a FFL to open your package?

[Griz44]

Every gun that arrives here is opened immediately, Photos are taken with a closeup of the serial number. It gets logged in. I fill out the bottom of the 4473 to prepare for the buyers arrival, that saves us both time. It gets put in the safe. The buyer or transferee is called and informed of the arrival. I have never had a single complaint. It covers us both! The digital pictures get stored on a backup set if I ever need them. On new guns, I do not open the bagged packing unless I just can't see through it to verify the serial. On used guns, I inspect the gun for any obvious defects or safety issues.

 

[.cheese.]

at my local FFL - yes. The box is always open when I go to pick stuff up that was special ordered, or transfered. It's because they log it into their book upon arrival to make sure nothing gets overlooked.

At first I wasn't sure, but since I've seen they do it every time, I'm more relaxed about it.

 

[ilbob]

Say you bought a gun online or had one shipped to a FFL. Is it standard practice to open the package before you get there and fill out the forms?

They have to enter the firearm on their books within some fixed period of time by BATFE rule. They have to open the box to do so. I bet most of them do it as soon as they can after getting a delivery.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

In one instance we had a customer beat the UPS driver. He really wanted his gun.

Geez, I hope the UPS driver wasn't hurt too badly & didn't press charges!

I wouldn't use an FFL that I didn't trust to open my package without me there.

+1000 on that. And also, remember that they don't have to receive a firearm for you. Granted, it's some easy money, logging it in & then logging it out, but it's still the FFL whom the BATFE will be questioning, not you.

Sam

 

[ftierson]

For the few of you worried/concerned about your FFL opening 'your' packages containing firearms...

It's really not 'yours' until it's backgrounded out to you by the FFL.

The FFL is required to enter the firearm into his bound book on the day that it is received. When BATFE conducts a compliance check, the FFL had better be damned sure that every firearm in the shop (or no longer in the shop) is accounted for in the shop's paperwork. If not, it can potentially result in loss of license (FFL) and even jail time.

At our shop (Hickman Rifles in Colorado Springs), we can easily receive ten firearms a day by UPS/FedEx/USPS. Since we're a gunsmith shop and not just a retailer, we receive firearms for both transfer and for repair. These firearms go into two separate books, but both books must be right up to date, and they'd better account for every firearm in the shop, or else...

We also receive packages with ammo, with reloading supplies and tools, with gun parts, etc. We don't automatically know what is in each box, except that ones looking like they contain long guns probably do contain long guns.

Usually, we don't know who a parcel is for until we open it. Sometimes, the final recipients name is on the outside of the box, but usually not...

Sometimes, we are expecting something for someone, but often not...

To guarantee that we keep our paperwork straight (and to avoid potential time in the gray-bar motel), our policy is to open parcels immediately (or close to immediately) after they come in and log stuff into our books appropriately.

Our policy is also to molest the firearm/parcel only enough to verify the manufacturer, model, serial number and chambering, all of which have to be entered into the bound book. And, of course, we retain a copy of the invoice for our records, which we physically place in the completed 4473 after transfer/background check.

Often, we don't have a clue who ordered something in even after we open the parcel, and have to wait until someone comes in to claim it. Sometimes the 'final' recipient nearly beats the BBT to our door. Sometimes the final recipient doesn't make himself known to us for months. But the firearm is entered into our records immediately, not matter when we finally discover who ordered the firearm.

In addition, unless we have some reason for retaining the original packaging, we discard it immediately after taking whatever information we need from it (obviously, this doesn't include original factory boxes and whatall, but it does include the exterior packaging). If we didn't discard the piles of cardboard, we'd quickly be up to our necks in boxes.

By opening the boxes and entering the info into our bound books immediately, we greatly lessen the chance of making mistakes. And, you must remember, it's our neck that's on the line.

And, if you don't pass the background check, you don't get the gun. That happens occasionally, and leads to all sorts of additional problems before things are resolved...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

For what it's worth...

Forrest

 

[Tom Servo]

Granted, it's some easy money, logging it in & then logging it out, but it's still the FFL whom the BATFE will be questioning, not you.

It's not always easy. I've had transfer-only customers who were far more high-maintenance than any regular customer.

Some will track the package online, and the second it says "out for delivery," they start calling every five minutes, asking if it's there yet. They're at the desk the second the UPS/FedEx truck pulls up, and no matter how busy the store is, they expect it to be checked in right now, to the exclusion of anything else.

Then they'll argue that the gun is only in 88% condition as opposed to the 90% condition the seller claimed it was. These people literally bring magnifying glasses. They'll make the clerk stand there for 30 minutes while they go over the gun and complain. If there's a discrepancy in condition, they yell at the store clerk rather than the person they bought it from. Sometimes, they'll demand compensation from the store.

I lost track of how many times I had to explain, "you didn't buy it from us. You need to take it up with onlin3sh00ter44."

Sometimes, they'll try to blame the shop. I had one guy scream profanities at me, swearing that someone at the store had taken the gun and shot it before he got there, because there's no way a new revolver could possibly have powder residue in the barrel (they test-fire them at the factory, fella).

Then there are the folks who will call dealers who may have the shop's FFL on file and order guns without the FFL's knowledge, claiming they've already cleared it with the shop.

Often, those are guns the shop had in stock.

Then there's the fun situation where they get denied on the background check, and the shop has to make arrangements for return shipping after getting chewed out by the customer for 45 minutes.

As far as opening the box, if you can be there shortly after it arrives, it's a reasonable request that the dealer wait. However, if eight hours have passed, and it's time to close up, the gun has to get logged in, and it's going to get opened.

That doesn't mean it's getting drooled on or fondled. Usually, the firearm doesn't have to be taken out of the plastic wrapping. The dealer does have to be absolutely sure of the serial #, though.

You do get alot of orphans, with no indication of why they were shipped, or who they were shipped for.

 

[Odd1]

The three FFls I have used always open the package before I get there.

I have always been given everything to include the shipping box.

I have never ever had a problem and fully expect them to open the package.

Having had an FFL, I fully understand he needs to know and dcoument what he has in his possesion.

However, I do not agree with the philosphy stating "it is the FFL dealer's gun until he transfers it to me".

I paid for it and I am responsible for paying to ship it back or deal with the seller if it is not as advertised.

The FFL dealer is required to do certain things to legally transfer it to me, no doubt.

I do not think he can sell the gun to someone else if another offer is made.

It is in his possesion, but that does not mean it is his gun.

He decides if he does buisness with me, but he does not own what I bought.

Now this applies to me paying for a gun from someone else and the FFL only receiving it. If it is was ordered from his shop and I have not paid for it yet, different story, that is his gun.

 

[ftierson]

Originally posted by Odd1
However, I do not agree with the philosphy stating "it is the FFL dealer's gun until he transfers it to me".

I paid for it and I am responsible for paying to ship it back or deal with the seller if it is not as advertised.

The FFL dealer is required to do certain things to legally transfer it to me, no doubt.

I do not think he can sell the gun to someone else if another offer is made.

It is in his possesion, but that does not mean it is his gun.

He decides if he does buisness with me, but he does not own what I bought.

Now this applies to me paying for a gun from someone else and the FFL only receiving it. If it is was ordered from his shop and I have not paid for it yet, different story, that is his gun.

I agree, Odd1.

I could have stated my point a little better, but I think that the point that I was trying to make still stands. If you cannot pass the background check (which the FFL has to complete), you don't take possession of 'your' gun, and other arrangements for the disposition of the gun have to be made.

The FFL certainly cannot just turn around and sell something that you have already paid for, and I didn't mean to suggest that was the case in my earlier post...

You just don't get 'your' gun until the dealer can transfer it to you following the letter of the law.

Forrest

By the way, Odd1, welcome to THR...

 

[jakemccoy]

I ask my FFL how a used gun looks over the phone. If he says it sucks, then I start the process of returning it.

 

[freakshow10mm]

However, I do not agree with the philosphy stating "it is the FFL dealer's gun until he transfers it to me".

My books say otherwise. So does the ATF.

It is in his possesion, but that does not mean it is his gun.

A dealer transfers a gun to me. Not the customer, to ME. How is that gun not under my control?

He decides if he does buisness with me, but he does not own what I bought.

Possession is 9/10ths the law. Any gun on the premises that is for business use is mine. Try this once. Take a gun in. Don't log in in your bound book. When the ATF does their yearly compliance visit and notes you have a gun in possession that is not in your bound book, tell them it isn't yours, it's John's gun, he just hasn't come by to pick it up and do the transfer yet. Guess who's ass is grass?

 

[Odd1]

I guess we can go on with sematics forever.

Got it, gun is in the delaers possesion, he has to log it in, BATFE expects him to log it in. I am not arguing any of that.

But I think just becasue something is in your possesion does not make it yours.
Can you sell it to someone else ?
Can you say "I am not going to initate a transfer because I want to keep it?"
Or is all that okay, becasue possession is 9/10 of the law?
(By the way, I have heard that before, just not from lawyers or judges, why then is stolen property recovered from theives?)

My car was in the shop getting tires replaced, is the car no longer mine?
I gave the keys to the shop, they have possesion, I bet the logged it in.
I know, cars and guns different laws.

I guess I feel the gun is mine becasue my FFLs always say "Hey your gun is in, come get it".

They do not say "I have a gun in that is mine even though you paid for it and BATFE says it is mine and I have decided to give it to you."

Either way, never had an issue with my FFLs, I just consider what I paid for mine. If they do not, they have never let me think otherwise, and we are all happy.

 

[ThomasT]

If I couldn't trust my FFL with opening my package I wouldn't deal with him in the first place. So for me its not a problem.

 

[SoCalShooter]

For the FFL I work for we have to open the guns up to check to make sure they are the correct product and to make sure the serials are correct then they have to be added to the bound book.

 

[Flyboy]

Odd1: simmer down before you have a coronary.

Yes, the gun you paid for and had shipped to your dealer is yours. That said, the dealer is--by law--the custodian of that firearm. He remains the custodian, with all the responsibilities thereof, until such time as it is transferred to you.

No, the gun isn't "his," but he is solely responsible for compliance with all appropriate laws, including logging, until it's transferred to you. If he's smart, he's going to open any necessary boxes to look the thing over and at least verify serial numbers. That's one of the responsibilities--mandated by Federal law--that goes with his custodianship. If he's not smart, he's not going to be your FFL much longer.

Furrfu. Some people get wrapped around the axle about the silliest things.

 

[MinnMooney]

My FFL opens the box and records everything as soon as he gets a break in business - not necessarily when I get there.
Nothing under-handed or cloak-&-dagger about it.

 

[usp9]

Mine always opens then up. If it's from CDNN, he helps himself to the freebees. He ships my guns for cost, so I can't complain to much.

 

[Big Mike]

Have used multiple FFLs when living in different states. All have opened packages.

 

[Odd1]

Flyboy,
no coronary at all, quite relaxed.

I said I had no issue with opening boxes, I expect him to that and all the law requires.

I may think the gun is mine, he may think it is his, however we never had an issue. We are all happy and I have never had a bad FFL transfer.

Like I said before, a matter of semantics. I get what I paid for and they follow all paperwork requirements, we all win.

Consider me unwraped from around the axle.

 

[yeti]

I would be more surprised if my FFL did not open the package.

Honestly, I always assumed that since it was shipped to him, it would have been addressed to him, and just that alone would give him the right to open it up.

Besides, I trust him, and just never gave it a thought beyond that.