Is it crazy not to buy assault weapons now?

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A lame-duck president has a far different political perspective than one who wants to be re-elected to a second term.

I do not trust the sitting president at this time on gun related issues (for a reality check, take a look at those he has appointed or nominated for staff and judicial positions).

I fear that this president, if re-elected, will have less to worry about as far as political risks and could do great harm to RKBA. Legislative action is not the only method to get his way as seen by a number of policy decisions that have compromised freedoms and liberty (IE: the EPA determining CO2 as a polutant, etc.).

JMHO

Dan
 
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Those who go along w/ gun grabbers terminology (e.g. Assault weapons) who hope to demonize them are unintentionally aiding the grabbers. Don't play their game. "Assault weapons" are full-auto capable. Anything that is not, is not.
Uhhh... wrong.

Assault weapons by federal definition are semi-auto.

Assault rifles by military definition are full auto.

There is a difference between an assault weapon, as federally defined, and an assault rifle, as defined by the military.

Also the term "assault weapon" was used in gun magazines for years before the federal government codified the term.

If you want to go along w/ the gun-grabbers, so be it. I will decline to do so and continue to correct the misinformed.
 
No, it is not crazy, and it's more than just Obama: Hilary Clinton as well.

As they move to take more rights away through the UN, watch out!!
 
Is it really just esthetics?
Yes it really was/is.

These laws all started from a "looks like" premise. So, an FAL was "evil" and an "M-1A" (generally) was not. M-1 Garand was legal, BM-59, not so much.

Logic had nothing to do with it.

Oh yeah, and despite being Federal Law for an entire decade, there were only like two dozen arrests, about ten arraignments, and, I think either one or two entire convictions.
 
Assault weapons by federal definition are semi-auto.
There is no Federal definition. There WAS a Federal definition, under which the following 7.62x39mm AK was NOT an "assault weapon":

med_gallery_260_23_20379.jpg


...but a Ruger mini-14 with a screw-on flash suppressor arguably was:

800px-Mini14GB.jpg

...but that definition expired in September, 2004, and no longer exists in Federal law.

(I say "arguably" because under the 1994 law, a mini-14 sans folding stock that violated the 2-features rule was simultaneously classified as an "assault weapon" and "particularly suitable for sporting purposes", but the features count was assumed to take precedence over the red-herring "sporting guns" list, hence mini-14's were not sold in that configuration during the quasi-ban.)

Also, any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine (regardless of features) would be an "assault weapon" if it was marketed by the manufacturer under any of 19 banned names, many of which were red herrings. Changing the name to a non-banned name removed the "assault weapon" status as long as the gun passed the features test.

The former Federal definition no longer exists at the Federal level. A few states copied it, but state definitions of "assault weapon" are widely divergent. There is a California definition, a Massachusetts/New York definition, a Maryland definition, a New Jersey definition, an Ohio definition, and a Virginia definition, under which a particular rifle may be an "assault weapon" or specifically NOT an "assault weapon" depending on which borders it crosses.

Assault rifles by military definition are full auto.
Select-fire, specifically.

Also the term "assault weapon" was used in gun magazines for years before the federal government codified the term.
But not before the gun control lobby popularized the term in the mass media.

The Violence Policy Center has certainly claimed that the civilian gun industry and gun media popularized the term "assault weapon" prior to 1988, but I don't think so, and it *certainly* was not in widespread use. The only cite I can find for it is a rather lame pro-gun whitepaper (Tartaro, "The Great Assault Weapon Hoax", 1995), written years after Sugarmann's 1988 screed "Assault Weapons and Accessories in America" that started the whole "assault weapon" fraud. I debated this issue at length on Democratic Underground a while back, when a gun control advocated cited Tartaro to try to make the same point you are, and I believe that claim to be highly suspect.

Not only does Tartaro fail to cite even one instance of a pre-Sugarmann use of the term "assault weapon" in gun marketing, but he doesn't come across as particularly well informed on modern guns overall, IMO.

Here's Tartaro's claim:

The idea of calling semi-automatic versions of military small arms "'assault weapons" did not originate with either anti-gun activists, media or politicians. The term "assault weapon" was first corrupted by importers, manufacturers, wholesalers and dealers in the American firearms industry to stimulate sales of selected "exotica"--firearms which did not have a traditional appearance.(10)

And here is Tartaro's sole citation for that claim:

(10) See SHOTGUN NEWS and other firearms publications beginning in the early 1980s.

Shotgun News, at that time, was a tabloid-format weekly of mostly classified ads posted by individual gunsmiths/collectors or mom-and-pop businesses---and he can't even seem to cite an instance ("see half a decade's worth of WEEKLY classified ads, or maybe some other magazine, but trust me on this"). Maybe he recollected accurately, and maybe he didn't, but it looks like he pulled the citation out of his head, and if he's a lawyer you'd think he'd own a copy of the MLA Style Guide.

Tartaro wrote that article in 1995; Josh Sugarmann had been popularizing the term in the pro-bans literature for years by that point. Color me skeptical. If you have pre-1988 citations of widespread use of "assault weapon" in the gun media, I'd love to see it.

Another passage from Tartaro flatly contradicts much of what he implied in the first cite:

First, the term "assault weapon" is erroneously applied. Assault weapons are by military procurement definition "selective, fire (full auto continuous or burst fire plus autoloading) arms of sub caliber." Since fully automatic and selective firearms have been severely restricted, taxed and licensed---and owners screened by local and federal law enforcement---since 1934, real assault weapons have been strictly regulated by federal as well as state laws for sixty years. The firearms which are targeted by recent laws and current legislative proposals are mostly semi-automatic (requiring a single trigger pull for each shot) or, in the case of the Street-Sweeper type shotgun, functional revolvers. They are indistinguishable in operation from other semi-automatic firearms used for self-defense, pest and vermin control, sport hunting and recreational shooting since the turn of the century.

He here applies the term "assault weapon" to NFA Title 2 restricted full autos (contradicting the other cite); the National Firearms Act restricts assault rifles, not "assault weapons." He also conflates the term "assault weapon" with "assault rifle" (Sturmgehwer); the definition he cites is the DOD definition of assault rifle, not "assault weapon."

I also see this passage that suggests Tartaro was way out of his depth when he wrote that:

The ballistic data for the .30-06 and M1 carbine cartridges, the .45 ACP used in World War II and Korea, and the .308 (7.62 X 39) M-14 individual infantry arm used by some units in Vietnam are substantially more powerful than the 5.56mm (.223) U.S. small arms cartridge of the M16 or 5.45 X 39mm Soviet Russian cartridge fired in current AK47 military small arms and their semi-automatic civilian derivatives.

Based on that paragraph, I think it's pretty obvious that the author was unfamiliar at that time with the guns and calibers under discussion.

Finally, it was indisputably Sugarmann's 1988 pamphlet and subsequent rehashing by the gun control lobby that popularized the term "assault weapon" in the popular media, gun media, and the general vernacular in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It is *possible* that Sugarmann lifted it from an obscure antecedent, but I have never seen any such antecedents cited. I had personally never heard it until it was used by the proponents of a ban circa 1989. It's also indisputable that today, "assault weapon" is a term used to demonize popular civilian rifles with handgrips that stick out, or firearms that exceed 10 (or sometimes 5) rounds capacity, without any fixed definition whatsoever.

Once the term entered the media, you can find occasional gun writers, gun owners, and gun sellers using the term "assault weapon", but I have never seen any that predate Sugarmann 1988, and if there were then they were never widespread. "Assault rifle" (in the DoD sense) yes; "assault weapon", no.

Is it really just esthetics?
Yes. Here's a 188-series Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle, circa 1989 (my first rifle, actually):

gallery_260_23_33326.jpg


With the top stock, it was protected as "particularly suitable for sporting purposes" under the 1994 Federal AWB and is legal in California.

With the middle stock, it was protected as "particularly suitable for sporting purposes" under the 1994 Federal AWB but is banned as an "assault weapon" in California.

With the bottom stock, it was classified as an "assault weapon" under the 1994 Federal AWB, so new-production rifles could not be equipped with those stocks between 9/1994 and 9/2004. The stocks were legal to purchase, though, and I don't think anyone was ever prosecuted for "constructive possession" or for installing ban-era folders on ban-era guns. Still, I bought the middle stock in 1994 and waited till 2004 to buy the bottom one.
 
Depends how old you are. I remember a buying frenzie in the late 60's. and the late 70's. And the late 80's (GW Bush 1 signed the assualt weapons ban of 1989) and in Clinton's first term. And Clinton's second term. And for y2k. And after 911. And now the last couple years. Now I am too old to care. I will say this, prices rarely go down, although I see far better AR15's for less money than in the 90's. The time to buy is when you can afford it easily, not when fear causes you to spend hard earned money on more of what you already have, when life has others things on the shopping list. FAL's? Now there is a horse of a different color. Out of production for 30-35 years? oldest ones are 55-60? And some spare parts are uncommon. Not to buy more for fear of government, but fear of sticker shock 10 or 20 years from now- or have something irreplaceable snap...
 
Around the time of Obummer's first coronation, I thought people were crazy to shell out ridiculous amounts of cash for guns and accessories likely to be banned. Exactly the opposite has happened -- prices have crashed while gun banners are generally running away with tails between their legs. Obummer had too much on his hands to worry about new restrictions on firearms, and he has much more to worry about now. Until the economy picks up and inflation kicks in, I wouldn't fret.
 
If Obama wins, it is inevitable that we will see another run on guns, ammo, and reloading supplies. Right now, assault weapons, as defined by the fed gov, are at an all time low price wise, and you can find them everywhere. If Obama is re-elected many people will figure that he will run rampant over gun rights in his 2nd term, since he has nothing to lose. So, is now the time to be buying?

Now is the time to be TRAINING. You would be well served with one AR-15 with quality optic such as an ACOG, 20 magazines, body armor, plate carrier, associated gear, two service pistols, and a scoped bolt action rifle in a solid centerfire cartridge (30-06 and 308 Winchester are great choices). You need to know how to engage in CQB, use a pistol for daily carry against criminal attack, and long range shooting, observation and target identification. You need to be good with a carbine to 300 yards and good to at least 800 yards with the scoped rifle. These are the best deterrents to obvious tyranny to date. Politicians have become comfortable in openly acting against the rights of Americans and they were very shocked when one man showed up to a political rally wearing a holstered pistol. These politicians truly felt the American people were 100% leashed prior to that event.

There really is no excuse either. You can buy an AR-15 upper in 5.45x39mm. This ammo costs $140 for 1,080 rounds (13 cents a shot). Cleanup of the corrosive gunk is very easy and consists of rinsing the weapon's internals with hot water and a spray down with a good cleaner. If you are really strapped for money, you can acquire a S&W or Ruger AR-15 style rifle chambered in 22 Long Rifle. Some trainers will allow such guns in their classes.

Training makes you dangerous given the implications of the thread. You become even more dangerous if you learn how to teach others. If you have no training, you are merely an accumulator of fun and interesting property.
 
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I'm buying dozens of lowers and numerous high cap clips as I find good deals on them. You can buy a lower for about $100(sometimes less). If in the future another ban comes around, it won't apply to those lowers, so they will sell like hotcakes with a premium. I remember hi cap glock mags selling for $125+ new Hopefully we will never see another ban, but if we do I'll have plenty for me and enough to make some cash as well.
 
It's never a BAD time to buy an assault rifle, but for those who already own a defensive arm of any type there are other more appropriate purchases to be made.


For the price of a top tier AK or entry level AR one would be better served with a few thousand rounds of rimfire ammunition, compliment of gunsmithing tools, and spare parts / mags for guns already owned.
 
JustinJ said:
They're not technically assault rifles because bla, bla, bla....

Why must this be regurgitated repeatedly every time the term is used? Who cares? Does anybody actually believe opinions on gun issues are influenced one way or the other by an article using the phrase "semi-auto military style rifle" instead of "assault rifle"? Nobody today assumes the term means the weapon was select fire. Pointing out what one believes is the misuse of the term is a complete straw man arguement that accomplishes NOTHING!
:banghead:
 
There is no Federal definition. There WAS a Federal definition

Well, does that mean that Slavery is no longer a defined term, now that Slavery laws are over turned?
 
Well, does that mean that Slavery is no longer a defined term, now that Slavery laws are over turned?

A federal definition of slavery is still on the books. It's defined and referenced in the 13th amendment.

Furthermore, the federal definition of an assault weapon was clearly dreamed up as a purely political term, regardless of whether or not the term had been used in any marketing materials prior to the passage of the law.

It is technically vague, both in terminology and in what it defines (see the post made by Ben Ezra above) and had nothing whatsoever to do with the actual functionality of the guns themselves.

It was a badly written law authored by ignorant and vindictive politicians with a culture war axe to grind.
 
The 13th Amendment references slavery, but I do not see a definition.

I don't think the term "assault weapon" is vague. It refers to magazine fed semi automatic rifles with bayonet lugs, pistol grips, flash hiders and/or collapsible stocks.

Do you really not know what an assault weapon is? or is this an axe you are grinding?
 
I believe that he will IF he gets the opportunity. That doesn't mean that he will.

What he has learned over the last couple of years, is that just because you hold the house, the senate, and the executive, it doesn't mean that it is a free pass or a blank check. There is a limited amount of political capital, and you have to spend it wisely. He may be rabidly anti-gun, but he has to prioritize, and there are other VERY LARGE issues in his agenda that will likely use it up. No matter how badly he wants to advance gun control, I don't think 'inevitable' is the correct term. 'Wanting' to and 'able' to are two different things.
 
Always a good time to buy any rifle or handgun if you can afford it. I live by that motto.
 
Prices will go up next fall. That's a given. It will be a panic buy all over again for a new crop of first time gun buyers. Gun shop ammo hasn't dropped any in price, it's just available now. I have a hard time paying $24 for a box of 100 9mm WWB that was $16 in the spring of 2009. I'm sitting where I want to be in terms of guns and ammo(well maybe I need a couple more cases of 5.56). I've shot more .22lr in the past couple years than I have in my whole life, just due to the relatively cheaper cost.
 
...You would be well served with one AR-15 with quality optic such as an ACOG, 20 magazines, body armor, plate carrier, associated gear, two service pistols, and a scoped bolt action rifle in a solid centerfire cartridge (30-06 and 308 Winchester are great choices). You need to know how to engage in CQB, use a pistol for daily carry against criminal attack, and long range shooting, observation and target identification. You need to be good with a carbine to 300 yards and good to at least 800 yards with the scoped rifle....

You would be "well served" for what? The Invasion of the Body Snatchers? Deployment to Afghanistan? Storming your next-door neighbor's house?

Do you really envision the need to be a sniper? And do you really see yourself toting 70-some-odd pounds of gear?

I am not putting down the value of training, but reality must intrude from time to time. In a real SHTF situation, your best bet would be a friend to help you shoot all those guns.

To some of the points that have been raised...

The term "assault rifle" is a translation of "Sturmgewehr" (literally "storm rifle") and has several definitions, depending upon whom you ask. Before we criticize its use, we should ask ourselves why we buy "semi-automatic military-style rifles," "EBRs" or any of the other euphemisms we employ. Come to think of it, what catchy, short phrase would we have the talking heads use? How about "SAMS rifle" (semi-automatic military-style rifle)? Sounds Spec Ops-ish, defines the weapon and avoids the use of "assault."

I haven't noticed the prices getting to "bargain-basement" range. On the other hand, prices haven't been going up like the prices of almost everything else, so perhaps this is a bargain time.

Everybody's got their knickers in a knot about Obama getting reelected. First, if he is reelected, he's got a lot more important fish to fry, even as a lame duck. Second, Obama couldn't get the AWB to the floor of the House when the Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress. Why? Because a bunch of Democrats opposed it.

Don't forget that even if Obama doesn't have to worry about reelection, there are plenty of other Democrats who do.

Will there be hysteria? If the National Rifle Association has their way, you can count on it. Will the hysteria turn into another rush on the gun shops? Probably not. We went down that path in 2008 and if we're not smarter, then at least we're already pretty well set with everything we bought back then.
 
Obama tried testing the waters with his little idea about outlawing shooting on public lands and realized how unpopular gun control is right now. He and his vote-hungry staff have noticed how nearly every state now has CCW permits available for citizens. Those local laws passed because people on BOTH sides of the aisle were in favor of them. Heck, a Democrat governor signed my state's into law.

After the last time Democrats made guns an issue, they paid dearly and lost a huge number of seats in congress (Clinton days). Much of that backlash was attributed to the power of the NRA.

Even if Obama feels high and mighty after winning the next election, any anti-gun laws he attempts to pass will anger his own Dems because it will cost THEM seats.
 
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It won't happen simply because people won't allow it. This is America not Europe. The U.N's "treaty" will not see the light of day here in the U.S. Both republican AND Democrats have both said they would not vote for the issue. A recent poll stated that 49% of Americans own guns now. Assault rifle or other wise firearms are a long and intrenched part of our history and there are too many of us that will not sit idly by while the government is confiscating our ak's, ar15s and such.

Yep, and many a German Jew, never thought the Nazis would take control of Germany.

More recently, a majority of Americans didn't want Obamacare either, but that is now passed into law. A lot of Democrats lost their seats in Congress in 2010 because of it too. But iObamacare is still law and will require three times as much effort to repeal it.

Don't ever assume our government won't do something simply because the populace won't support it.
 
I will be buying one because I want one...not because of the election. I am tired of everybody else having all the fun.

I am gonna get a Stag Model 4 I am pretty sure...basically a 20" A2 style rifle with the full length gas tube, fixed stock (don't find myself egressing vehicles under fire or wearing body armour) but with the bonus of a removable carry handle. Probably get some optics some day.

AR-15s are just too much fun to shoot to miss out on.

I don't care what anybody says, who's in the White House, or who's running for president...I want to have as much fun as everybody else.
 
I don't think the term "assault weapon" is vague. It refers to magazine fed semi automatic rifles with bayonet lugs, pistol grips, flash hiders and/or collapsible stocks. Do you really not know what an assault weapon is?

Do I not know what an assault weapon is? No, I don't, as the definitions given by groups like the Brady Campaign, CSGV, and VPC vary from one organization to the next.

Furthermore, the definition of a so-called "assault weapon" can vary from state to state. Most states have no legal definition of such a gun at all. Of the few states who do have such a definition, if you actually take the time to compare the laws, the definitions vary wildly from state to state, and with little logical consistency.

Finally, you clearly did not do the research as the federal definition of an assault weapon (before the law was removed from the books) applied to more than just military-style rifles, and also included pistols and shotguns, which clearly dilutes your use of the term, if your intention is to claim that a defunct federal law gives your use of such an useless term actual credence.

Allow us to examine but one part of this law, regarding the ban's treatment of handguns:

thomas.loc.gov said:
`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--

[for brevity, some content regarding rifles removed]

`(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

`(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

`(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

`(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

`(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and

`(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

By this definition, a Walther GSP is an assault weapon because the magazine well is forward of the grip, and the gun would have a weight of more than 50 ounces if one were to attach an optional barrel weight and/or use a threaded barrel with a compensator to reduce recoil, as many Bullseye competition shooters often do.

No sane or rational person would consider an Olympic-grade rimfire target pistol to be the same as a rifle design derivative of one issued to the military, but the federal assault weapon ban did exactly that, creating a definition of what constitutes a so-called "assault weapon" so broad that it included everything from military-style rifles to target pistols used by Olympic Competitors.

Fundamentally, your claim that...
Balrog said:
I don't think the term "assault weapon" is vague. It refers to magazine fed semi automatic rifles with bayonet lugs, pistol grips, flash hiders and/or collapsible stocks.
Is utterly incorrect, not only because the general term of "assault weapon" is vague, but because the definition of the term "assault weapon" as legally defined within the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 very clearly defines an assault weapon in terms far more broad in scope than you have been using them.

or is this an axe you are grinding?

I have an axe to grind against ignorance and willful stupidity.
 
I really don't care what the federal definition was as determined by a bill and neither do the vast majority of americans. The purpose of bills is not to define words for the general public but to make law. The inclusion of certain handguns in the Assault Weapons ban was done to outlaw them and putting them under the legal definition of assault weapon did just that. Regardless of how, when or why, "assault rifle" has entered the general lexicon. If there was a PR battle between gun owners and gun controllers over the definition then we lost. Its time to move on. Calling an AR 15 a sporting rifle is just as disingenous anyways given that is not what the gun was originally designed to do.
 
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