Is it self defense if you track your stolen car to a gas station and then engage in a gunfight with the thieves? A St Louis Jury is about to decide

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Jeff White

Jeff White

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This is a wild one. Woman's car is stolen from her driveway. She tracks it using a GPS device, gives police it's location in real time and they send an officer to take a report. Woman and her son went into the city where she could reach a city dispatcher on 911. They follow the car to a gas station. It pulls up to the door and a masked man gets out of the stolen car and enters the gas station. The woman, her son and another friend who arrived on the scene then approached the stolen car and ordered the other occupants out at gunpoint. Gunfire erupted between the two parties resulting in one dead and two wounded, one of whom was a bystander:

www.stltoday.com

Owner tracked her stolen car to a St. Louis gas station, where 2 died. But was it murder?

Demesha Coleman, now 37, was charged with murder in 2022 after she followed her stolen Hyundai to a gas station and two men were killed in a shootout.
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com

Jury is still out as I post this..................
 
Probably the right verdict. Theirs is no reason to insert yourself into a police situation unless you are in danger or the officer is actively being killed. A car can be replaced easily enough, especially if you have insurance on it like you should. Intentionally putting yourself into a life or death situation over a car is just dumb. Intentionally putting yourself this case it is apparently criminally dumb.
 
I hope they get off.

I wonder if the police told them to stay back and just provide location updates. That's pretty common advice and if it was given and ignored that could be real bad for them.
 
Jeff White said:
I'm afraid I have to agree with the prosecution, you can't claim self defense if you started the fight.
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I think i is arguable that the "fight" started with the theft of property. Had it never been stolen, the two would never have met.

That said, one cannot "defend" oneself by chasing the danger. Details matter and I don't know them. A child in the car would make a big difference, for example.
 
jmorris said:
I think i is arguable that the "fight" started with the theft of property. Had it never been stolen, the two would never have met.
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Nope, that was the action that started the chase. The fight didn't start until they ordered the thieves out of the car at gunpoint.
 
Jeff White said:
Nope, that was the action that started the chase. The fight didn't start until they ordered the thieves out of the car at gunpoint.
Click to expand...

Guess my quotes are not working tonight; however, There have been many, many fights lost by people that didn't think they actually began until actions occur. Often, by then it's too late, for them.

Edit: I suppose the subject(s) of this thread too.
 
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jmorris said:
Guess my quotes are not working tonight; however, There have been many, many fights lost by people that didn't think they actually began until actions occur. Often, by then, it's too late.

Edit: I suppose the subject(s) of this thread too.
Click to expand...
If I had to investigate this and write the narrative report, the incident started with the ltheft of the car. The actual fight didn't happen until they ordered the thieves out of the car at gun point.

Missouri law on citizens arrest only allows deadly force to be used to affect an arrest for a Class A felony. Auto theft isn't a Class A felony.
 
I have to admit to not reading the linked article but I couldn't read much more than the above before blocked by popups. Any way to quote worthwhile content, to read here?

If there was gun fire at any point, and I was writing a report, I would have called it a "shooting", escalating it above a "fight".
 
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It's bad public policy to condone what is arguably police action by private citizens. Chasing down car thieves and confronting them at gunpoint is police action, not self defense. I wasn't able to read the linked article but I see from earlier posts a verdict was reached against the woman Coleman. Two linked but different crimes were committed by those involved. It's fairly common and maybe always that the aggressor who does not break off cannot succeed in a self defense claim.
 
If you want to claim self-defense, don't go around initiating confrontations. If you initiate a confrontation you will probably have to very clearly break off the confrontation and then make a creditable and obvious effort to flee. If the person chases and corners you and tries to seriously injure/kill you, then you would probably be able to credibly claim self-defense at that point.

You aren't likely to get away with confronting someone (however good the reason for the confrontation), doing something that could be perceived as provoking them into fighting and then killing them "in self-defense".
 
The car owner isn't a LEO and shouldn't have inserted herself into that police activity. Now she's been found guilty and faces a lifetime of difficulty.
 
My car is gone, stolen, I'll go find it...
There is my car.
Oh crap, the person(s) who stole it are now using armed force against me...
I'll have to defend myself.

If that ^ (going to find one's stolen car) is not legal it should be.
Whether it is a good idea is irrelevant 😉 talking legality. 😇
Not guilty.
 
CDW4ME said:
My car is gone, stolen, I'll go find it...
There is my car.
Oh crap, the person(s) who stole it are now using armed force against me...
I'll have to defend myself.
Click to expand...
Exactly the opposite is what happened. Armed force was used against the thieves. Not self defense when you start the fight.
 
bearcreek said:
www.ksdk.com

Woman goes from car theft victim to suspected killer in St. Louis shooting

The woman tracked down her stolen SUV to a gas station and opened fire on the man inside. Two innocent bystanders were also shot and one died.
www.ksdk.com www.ksdk.com

Here's an article about the incident that isn't behind a paywall.
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Thanks for the link. It reads about what I expected. She and her accomplice, are victims of car theft but perpetrators of murder. I don't know her life circumstances, but there is no excuse for taking the law into your own hands. This is the difference between civilization with rule of law and anarchy. She'll now have a long time to contemplate her lack of control and choice to escalate a property crime into unlawful and unjustified taking of a life, no matter how worthless a car thief might be.
 
I think conservatives, and the gun community need to start pushing back against cases like these. What was done was unwise but it's reprehensible that someone will spend life in prison when they were the victim in the first place. Until that happens crime will continue to just go out of control.
 
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