Is it wrong to modify a common military surplus rifle?

[jon_in_wv]

Amen MrMevel.

 

[Baron357]

Given the conditions the OP stated I vote NO, if the rifle was beyond repair (original condition) then yes do what you like.

 

[Art Eatman]

To me, a "collectible" is something of which there aren't many at all. Just because they're hard come by because millions of people sucked them off the market doesn't create collectability. IMO.

IMO, "collectible" and "rare" or "few made" go together. Ferrari GTOs. 1894P Morgan dollars. Winchester 1895s in military configuration.

But old battle rifles? Hey, whatever the owner wants to do is just fine by me.

, Art

 

[JWF III]

This is not a yes/no question. It depends on condition. Numbers matching, mint condition shouldn't be sporerized. A beat up old rifle that has been to the armorer so many times that nothing matches then go ahead.

 

[SOUTHERNHUNTER]

I voted NO.If you bought it.Do what you want to it.

 

[ColinthePilot]

For me, depends on the rifle. I have a Yugo SKS with some bored soldier's girlfriend's name carved in the stock. That rifle will stay as is. I plan to buy a cheap norinco and turn it into a ninja. For the most part, milsurps in my closet are going to stay as original as I can. My CMP Garand is a mix master, so I'm going to refinish the furniture and maybe replace some worn internals and that'll be it. No ninjafying or bubbasizing.
But thats my armory. The only thing I can say about others is what my father taught me: use the right tool for the job. You want a tacticool rifle, then buy one. You want a good-looking milsurp, buy that. You want a good deer rifle, an AK with a scope and a carbon fiber stock probably isn't your best bet.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

It's your rifle. Do what you like.

But someone, someday is going to say "why in the heck did someone do this to that fine old rifle"

 

[Green Lantern]

I don't plan on modding my SKS or Nagant in any way. Well, I might try one of those front-sight scope mounts on the Mosin (no permanent mods needed).

I don't really object to people doing it, but it'll be a shame when/if all of the "regular" versions of certain mil-surps dry up FOREVER.

Remember, as others have said, NO milsurp EVER remains "common, inexpensive, and plentiful" FOREVER. And thanks to the UN and IANSA and other disarmament forces at work on the global scene, don't expect the supply of milsurp arms to ever get MORE plentiful.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Sporterizing milsurps

I have sporterized many Mausers in the last 35 years and regret only a very few of them (an original 1909 Argentinian comes to mind). Except for one 1938 Carcano Carbine in 6.5mm, all my sporters have been M98 Mausers. I will sporterize any large ring Mauser that has been bubbahed previously but not any in COMPLETE milspec configuration. The exception to that rule is any Turkish rework. I do not own or intend to own any more Carcanos, Arisakas, Mosin Nagants,1891 Argentines etc, not because they aren't good rifles but because I don't like them and they make ugly sporters (IMHO). I presently own 4 '98 Mausers, 3 of which I personally sporterized. The exception is a 1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine of Argentinian manufacture. (The carbine has no stock or hardware and is in excellent condition.) I want to build this one as well but just can't get over it's rareness.

 

[rimfire]

I vote yes, with the usual exception for distressed/incomplete rifles.
I believe you should buy a gun based on what you need it to do. If you want a lightweight gun, buy a lightweight gun. If you need a short barrel, buy a short barrel. If you want a Duke Nukem BFG looking monster assault rifle, buy one. But milsurps are a part of our history, and I find it distasteful to alter them permanently.
Frankly, I'm thinking of purchasing a Mosin 91-30 as a deer gun, and the only change made to it would be a scout mount, which can be removed without leaving a mark. All I need it to do is put a big F-ing hole in what I point it at. I can deal with a little extra weight.

 

[qajaq59]

Wrong? No. A good idea? Well........ that's pretty much a no as well.

Unless someone is an extremely clever and skilled craftsman ( And there are a few of those around.) his chances of improving any rifle are pretty slim. It just simply isn't all that easy to do. I wouldn't waste my time and money even trying. It's just easier to buy the rifle that will do what I want from day one.

 

[jd46561]

Here is an example of Bubba's stupidity. He took a rare Swiss 1900 short rifle(#162 out of 176 made) and sanded the stock , put a bakelite buttplate on and started to saw off the forstock. He took a vary expensive rifle and turned it into this...

 

[Nolo]

You need to understand that there is no such thing as a "common military surplus rifle". They are all little pieces of history, small fragments from blasted battlefield and witnesses to heroism and evil alike.

 

[Niner]

Wrong to modify a common military surplus rifle?

Not any more so than to put 20 inch bling bling wheels on a common 57 Chevy......but it does make some of us wonder why though.

 

[Gustav]

Counted among the sins of my youth I used to sporterize old Springfield's Mauser's and Enfield's but after seeing how quickly the once plentiful and inexpensive milsurps can become hard to find expensive and rare I have long since quit sporterizing old classics and now instead much prefer to restore them to what they once were.

How many German and Swedish Mauser rifles and carbines were butchered how many old 1903A1 and 1903A3's met a cruel fate?:banghead:
Yes, I am guilty of having done so in the distant past but will never again do so!

How many rare Finnish Mosin Nagants have been hacksawed because they were sold as merely a cheap old Russian rifle.:banghead:

These rifles are never going to be built again they are artifacts of history and should be preserved if at all possible to be appreciated by future generations as time marches on.

If one has to sporterize a rifle please find one that has already been ruined or devalued beyond saving and please leave the originals for present or future collectors one day your grandkids or great grandkids may thank you.

 

[Ash]

I've seen way too many rifles butchered because the owner thought them common when in fact, they were very rare. VKT M27, "B" barreled M91, M28/30 to name a few. A fellow THR member ended up buying that 28/30, knowing it carried the mark of bubba, because it would make an excellent shooter. He was right, it does make an excellent shooter, but it's value was lost when bubba modified every single part, from rear sight base to stock to bolt handle to barrel to receiver. Bubba took a $400 rifle and, with an afternoon's work, managed to enhance it's value negative $320, down to a good $80 or so.

If one is to sporterize, do so on a rifle already suffering bubba's handiwork. A good message, whether the post is a year old or not!

Ash

 

[Joe Demko]

Fragments of history? Everything is a fragment of history. Archeologists spend their whole careers sifting through old privies and garbage heaps. An old military rifle is no more, or less, a fragment of history than a coterminous beer bottle or patent medicine tin.
It's your rifle. Do as you wish with it.

 

[cpttango30]

I voted no becaue I own 2 sporterized milsurp guns. One was done in a shed I believe. With a stock of of another rifle that did not quite fit so it gothacked up then a bedding job (Not a good mind you) it has a grip cap that is too big for the grip. and it has a Remington butplate that was sanded down to fit the stock. and Lyman peep sights. It shoots good enough (2" @ 100 yards) to hunt deer where I live.





Then I have my 308 that started life as a 1917 Rem Enfield in 30-06 then became a 300 H&H mag then a 308 win.

It has a heavy taper Stainless barrel and is it the shop getting a scope mount custom made for it. The stock is made from black walnut with some of the best looking checkering I have ever seen. It has a black fore end cap and a inlaid diamond in the fore end as well.

The 308 is on the top.

WHy do I care if you want to make a deer rifle out of a 03a3 or try to make a bench rifle our of a nagant. If it is what you want then go for it.

 

[benEzra]

There's a difference between "wrong" and "possibly unwise."

IMHO, it is not morally wrong to take a mass-produced rifle you've purchased with your own money, and you lawfully own, and modify it (legally) to your heart's content, IMHO.

HOWEVER, it may not always be the wisest use of the rifle, and if you screw up something that may be valuable someday, you may end up kicking yourself like the guy who carved, cut, welded, and tubbed his 1957 Bel Air in the early '80s because he thought it would be cool to have a "Pro Street" car with three foot wide tires, a powder-coated roll cage, wheelie bars, and shag carpet that would barely run twelves in the quarter, because that car is now much less desirable than the unmodified car.

However, I can find little fault with the guys who irreversibly modded a 1969 Camaro to make this work of art, which is arguably more desirable than the original car:


http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/

As to rifles, if I had a rack-grade M44, I'd probably have no qualms about modifying it for a scope. But my Finn M39, I'd go with a no-gunsmith mount (like a Millett) rather than permanently modifying it.

I'd probably be OK with refinishing the stock to protect it, though, just as I'd be OK with repainting a 1957 Chevy rather than keeping the "pristine" faded paint with the rust spots showing through.

 

[ArmedBear]

The real problem is that few of the guns are worth modifying.

I like Enfields, but I'm fond of them in original condition, so I wouldn't chop one up.

Yugo Mausers need a lot of work to become good sporters, and don't have the most common receiver dimensions, so stocks aren't dime-a-dozen. They're not really collectible, and they have that beloved Mauser action, but by the time you're done, is it really worth the money for what you get back?

Mosins? Hell, when I started to look at the money I'd need to put into one to make a good sporter, again, it's not worth it, since I'd end up with a Mosin action.

I guess, if you have the urge to build a gun and don't trust your skills on something that's more expensive up front, a milsurp can be a good starting point. But don't expect a nice hunting rifle for a bubba investment. If you want to put together a nice rifle, start with a Howa barreled action instead.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm relatively sure I've said my piece on this anchient thread, but if it's your's, screw the world and grab the hack saw. Do what you want to it, if it pleases you.

You need to understand that there is no such thing as a "common military surplus rifle". They are all little pieces of history, small fragments from blasted battlefield and witnesses to heroism and evil alike.

No, it's not living, it's a piece of steel and wood, nothing else. It cannot tell you where it's been. You may not want to mess with yours, but you have no right to tell bubba what to do with his.

 

[ArmedBear]

MC's right.

Everything is collectible when it's old enough. Do you save your empty beer cans? One day, they'll be worth money.

Surplus means "extra", "left over", "no longer needed."

I'd be more concerned about "soup from a stone" syndrome than I would with an M44 being really collectible any time soon. I.e., you can throw a few hundred bucks at your M44 and you'll still have a rifle that's a very durable POS. But now it will have a scope and a different stock on it. Woohoo.

And a true collectible, something unique, of real historical interest, is not being sold as "surplus."

 

[Ash]

The problem is that Bubba seldom ever keeps his hatchet-jobs. They end up collecting dust in a pawn shop. Of course, Bubba cannot merely work on one of these, he has to go out and do another one. And often times, they are very rare rifles cut up.

You see, bubba sees what other bubbas have done and rejects them. He'll do it better, he says. Instead of getting their hacked-up collections of parts, he starts with an uncut example and then proceeds to discover his talents and patience are no better than the other bubbas of the word. So, away it goes and the pile of junk rifles ever grows.

I wonder why folks have to cut up entire rifles when there are so many out there already cut up. If you want to sporterize, why on earth not acquire a rifle already cut up? What is the draw in getting an intact military specimen only to cut it up when there are so many that can be tinkered with?

Sure, it's your rifle, do with it as you please. But keep the darn thing once you've trashed it.

Ash

 

[Ash]

By the way, I have every right to tell bubba what to do with his, he just doesn't have to listen. White Arches, in Columbus, MS, is a great example of bubba. Built by the commander of the Mississippi militia. Every time the house was sold, all furnishings went with it, including books and a fine harp. This was quite the fancy home. At one point, it was being used as a bed and breakfast and was largely unchanged save for electricity and air conditioning. The walls were hand-painted patterns, the furniture excellent condition, the whole place a real joy to visit.

A trucking company owner buys the house and his wife decides to "fix it up." They paper over the original painted walls (remember, very expensive patterns hand painted). They cut doors into walls, and sold off furniture and managed to destroy the history of the place. Naturally, it was their home to do with as they pleased. Well, they got tired of it and sold it. They owned it just long enough to devastate the place, sell off its history, and with it, much of its value. It cannot be returned to its original condition and Bubba got tired of it.

Here is an excerpt from the New York Times on the subject...

"No need to whisper: a last-minute insert in the schedule said that one of the dozen listed houses, White Arches, would be open for ''an architectural tour only,'' a hint that something was amiss. At the appointed hour, I joined a group of visitors following azalea-lined walks toward the 1857 house.

We did not have long to puzzle. Inside, White Arches was in sad shape, lacking a lot of furniture and with much interior woodwork torn out. Photo albums on tables showed a reverse of the usual before and after. In the previous months, a family had contracted to buy the house from the Ned Hardins. They took occupancy and, according to Hardin family members posted in the house as guides, called the midnight movers just as a big payment was due. "

I had stayed in that home several times before it's gutting. For every good quality sporter, there are 20 bubba's destroying value for nothing.

Ash

 

[ArmedBear]

The best option probably IS to go get a Bubba special, and only if it's a Mauser. Throw away everything but the action. Build a custom rifle around the action.

However, some places have more of these things in pawn shops than others. I don't see too many around here. Seen a few, but pawn and gun shop owners probably won't take most of them.

That said, I can't think of anything currently at Big 5 that's worth using as the basis for a custom rifle other than an Enfield, and those are really neat as-is.

Howa barreled action. Words to live by.