Is lead toxicity from hunting ammo real?

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Kingcreek, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I mis-spoke, I meant to say "besides poaching". Trauma and lead poisoning are the two top causes of death for Eagles today. Trauma can be caused by many things, including gunshots, just as poaching can be done by poisoning. This is how most fish farms and game farms illegally eliminate Eagles preying on their crop.

    Our state DNR has been adamantly advising hunters to be aware of the possibility of lead poisoning from eating game harvested with lead projectiles, especially for children and pregnant/nursing women. Here's a good link from our neighbor Minnesota......
    https://www.grandforksherald.com/northland-outdoors/6916763-Long-term-monitoring-shows-7-of-Minnesota-venison-laced-with-toxic-lead


    Deer hunting with firearms here runs from early October thru January. While lead ingestion is seasonal, it's a long season. Hard for Eagles to eat fish when the lakes, rivers and streams are frozen. Finding and eating frozen deer carcasses is easier. It takes a lead fragment the size of a grain of rice to kill an Eagle (One #5 pellet). Lead does not naturally leave the Eagles body, but will accumulate over long periods of time till it becomes lethal. This is the same with DDT. Turkey Vultures do get lead poisoning, but folks don't have the same emotions about them as they do Eagles and other Raptors. The gizzards in birds tends to grind down lead fragments and makes them easier to be absorbed and harder to eliminate thru fecal material than with mammals. Birds of prey also have very acidic stomachs as opposed to mammals and other birds.
     
  2. Thomasss

    Thomasss Member

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    For information sources try this: item 11 C Sava Presentation for F&G meeting.8.7.12.DS.ppt (ballisticstudies.com) which confirms my point that California's testing show banning bullets in their state had no effect on bird poisonings. And from Wisconsin eagles deaths from lead poisoning at 25%, well that number is wrong. The correct number is 16% and how was that number determined? All the eagles deaths that were verified from lead for 7 years. It actually comes out to just over 2 eagles per year. And the DNR assumed it was from deer gut piles. Now Wi DNR also said there is lead poisoning from swans and loons. Do they feed on gut piles too? Actually they think those may be due to lead fishing weights. Now Minn. Wisc. and Mich. have all posted warnings over the years about shooting animals with lead bullets and eating the meat. But to date, not one of them has a confirmed poisoning case based from game meat. But they all do say to donate the meat to the poor. (donate potentially dangerous meat to the poor?) Another article from CNN(another un-bias source?) date 2/26/2020 quoting from the American Bird Conservancy that said hunters should all be using copper bullets. Well, guess what? Copper accumulates in animal tissue too and can be poisonous by attacking the nervous system, muscles and joints. And if that is not enough, copper bullets are an alloy, meaning copper is blended with metals such as zinc, lead, iron, aluminum, antimony, arsenic, cadium, cobalt, nickel, sulfur and tin.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
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  3. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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  4. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    So they poisoned the condors on purpose.
    It's easy to conduct a study if you can make sure of the results in advance. (The end justifies the means.)
     
  5. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    BOOM!

    Controlled study with exposure controls in place. Ingested lead shot poisoned the birds.

    No surprise. Ingested lead seems to poisons pretty much all the other vertebrates. Why would birds be an exception?
     
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  6. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    From the OP @Kingcreek. Will wildlife eat (ingest) lead bullets or lead shot?

    An honest take on the study by @alsaqr linked. Why would the researchers “dose” the birds instead of letting the Andean condors free range and study them based on what they eat, picked up in the field? Is it really a surprise the birds got lead poisoning after they were “dosed by researchers”? Duh!

    A dishonest take by @Double Naught Spy on the study linked by @alsaqr. It’s dishonest because he says ingested lead shot poisoned the birds. Again, duh! The birds were “dosed by researchers” for the study, they didn’t eat lead from a gut pile in the field.

    So the question remains for ducks, eagles, condors, and grouse. Why do studies “dose the birds with lead” and then show naturally that “birds die from lead poisoning” (Duh!) and then people (like THR members, researchers themselves, general public) go on to ASSUME that if hunters use lead bullets and lead shot then birds die from eating lead shot and bullets.

    Show me studies where condors or ducks or eagles ate lead from things in the field of their natural habitat and I’d be happy to advocate for removing lead from our hobby. I’ve looked, and I can’t find any studies.
     
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  7. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Let's see, because some people are so hard headed as to not to be able to follow evidence trails and then claim that lead ingestion is UNPROVEN. Then, ironically, when faced with a study that shows exactly that, they will claim D'uh! of course they got lead poisoning if they were fed lead. You got your proof and now you reject it as obvious?

    So now you are demanding yet another standard of proof. It has already been shown that birds eat lead in the field. That isn't in question. We know that ingestion of lead is poisonous to birds. That isn't in question. Yet, now you want proof that eating lead in the field by birds is poisonous???? Are you not following the data?

    Not very well, apparently. While I have no doubt that you will yet again balk at the information and likely demand yet another standard of "proof" here are a couple of studies that document lead shot ingestion by birds in the field with appropriate testing to show detrimental effects of lead on their systems, including deaths.
    https://meridian.allenpress.com/jwd/article/27/1/1/118743
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000632079190047D
     
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  8. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    I’m not demanding anything, unless of course your idea of “demand” is that I change my opinion based on your good word.

    I’ve been saying all along that if a duck or eagle is fed lead, it will die. One pellet won’t kill them. I’ve also been saying all along that field data proving hunters using lead projectiles like shot and cast bullets causing early death in said birds has yet to be proven.

    In the links you just posted, again not field data. In the first case, a duck farm with lead shot littered on the ground and in the ponds.
     
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  9. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Here is some more good links.....

    https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/Fishing/FishHealth_PbExposureinWIBirds.pdf

    https://www.apg-wi.com/price_county_review/free/focus-on-nature-the-deadly-impact-of-lead-on-wildlife/article_181b2d7a-3d33-11ea-8716-33d65199f7a9.html

    http://www.wisconsinbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/leadpoisoning-1.pdf

    https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/madison/news/2019/12/26/lead-poisoning-threatens-eagles-in-upper-midwest

    None of these involves birds that were force fed lead. This is all about birds picking up lead from the environment. I am not going to get int the discussion of banning lead, that is not what the OP's question was. Lead toxicity from hunting ammo is real. Whether or not this is significant or not, is solely dependent on one's priorities. As I said before, studies show that a lead fragment the size of a grain of rice will kill an Eagle....that is one pellet.

    You give us a link where the authors name is misspelled within the link. Credible? He suggests there are other forms of lead in the environment and with that I agree. Most are there because of us. There's a reason we have banned lead paint and toys using lead in the production of plastics. There's a reason we no longer use lead pipes for drinking water and why plumbing solder is now 95/5. But in studies I give, birds have lead remnants in their stomach and gizzards. The studies also describe how loons and swans end up with lead in their bodies and it is not gut piles. Copper jackets, while they do fragment, do not fragment near as much as lead. For the most part, the lead in a jacketed bullet is used for the weight and the expansion. That expansion leads to fragmentation. Folks talk about weight retention of a bullet recovered after a kill. It's ain;t the copper jacket that is still in the animal. Hard to ignore the evidence. Again, how much this matters is one's personal preference.
     
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  10. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    I think banning lead was the OP’s scenario and question. He wants to argue with crazy lady that lead from hunters shouldn’t be banned, and asks if he has a leg to stand on?

    Thank you @buck460XVR for the link to studies. These are the best I’ve seen, with actual field data, how the data was collected, statistically significant conclusions and overall conclusions.

    A study for woodcock in Canada yielded the same results as the study in Wisconsin. Adult birds (shot with steel shot for the study) showed elevated levels of lead in their bones in some cases. Both studies also said they had no idea where the lead came from since they found no lead in the birds digestive tracts. But, the Wisconsin study said (without proof) that lead shot cannot be ruled out as the PRIMARY source and reason the adults had lead in their bones.

    My thought: Lead shot being one possibility? Sure. The primary source? How so since no data to support? Seems like a leap of faith to me. Precambrian lead? Wait a minute here...are they saying lead exists naturally in the soil, and that a bird eating from the soil may concentrate Precambrian lead in its bones over the course of its life? Nah, that’s crazy talk.

    From the Wisconsin study. What do you make of this?


    View attachment 991397
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  11. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    According to whoever makes such decisions in cali, it is horrible cause reasons. As someone who spent decades in places like Ft Benning Ga., Ft Campbell Ky and Ft Bragg NC where literally tons of lead ammunition has been fired on a regular basis since WW2- I saw a significant presence of animals of every type, all healthy and doing what they normally do. Even predatory birds.
     
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  12. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    No. It isn’t. The idea that lead from bullets in gut piles is being ingested by large numbers of carrion eaters is false and unsupported by scientific data. The idea that lead in bullets in gut piles that might be ingested by carrion eaters is then digested in bird crops to the level that it can pass through the tissue-blood barrier is, at the very most, highly speculative and not supported by any rigorous science.

    By the way, the bald eagle population is flourishing, largely due to the DDT ban and conservation efforts funded by Pittman-Robertson excise taxes on firearms and ammunition and hunting licenses.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/24/us/bald-eagle-population-quadruples-lower-48-states-trnd/index.html
     
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  13. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Oh please, do show us the studies that show this.
     
  14. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    Studies that show there are no rigorous scientific studies demonstrating that carrion eaters that may ingest lead from bullets then digest lead to the level that it passes the blood tissue barrier? The burden of proof is providing studies that demonstrate carrion eaters 1) consume sufficiently large quantities of lead from bullets in gut piles (there are no such studies: provide them if you can), 2) scientifically rigorous studies that prove carrion eaters that have ingested lead from bullets in gut piles then digest such lead to the levels that it can pass the blood tissue barrier (again, there are no such studies. If you insist there are, then present them).

    Lead fragments swallowed by humans and animals do not pass the blood-tissue barrier and cannot cause lead toxicity.
     
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  15. Thomasss

    Thomasss Member

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    I look at gut piles a little differently. For example, I try to retrieve bullets when ever possible to see how effective they were in harvesting a deer. Many bullets go through and through and are not retrieved. Some are. Some hit bones and other do not. Most end up in meat of the opposite side of the animal. The average loss of weight on my bullets is approx. 5% Now according to the DNR, the average kill zone averages 10 inches in height by 17 inches long and average width is 18 inches which =3,060 cubic inches. Fragmentation of 5% average on a 150 grain bullet is 7.5 grains. Now spread 7.5 grains of lead and copper over and through 3,060 cubic inches of tissue. And how much of that will an eagle consume? I watched a gut pile be consumed one year in an area frequented by several eagles. The coyotes were there first, then crows and the eagles didn't get in until the next day. I saw there wasn't much left for them to eat. It just doesn't make sense to me that eagles are going to get any large amount of fragments. The way deer are gutted is that the stomach and intestines fall out first and then the lungs, heart and liver. Chances are the fragments, if any, will be on top of the pile. Thus the coyotes would have access to all of that first. If eagles are consuming lead, I would put my money on fish that still have jigs and weights attached to them.
     
  16. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    I bet windmills, motor vehicles, and aircraft kill lots more birds of all types than spent lead projectiles in carcasses and remains.
     
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  17. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    This from Mayo Clinic......

    BTW.....ingested means it has been swallowed.
     
  18. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    Concerning eagles, the issue with them in Iowa is that there are too damn many.
     
  19. Thomasss

    Thomasss Member

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    It would be nice if you would stay on one issue and not combine multiple problems to make your point. The quote from the Mayo Clinic is very old. It referred to children eating or sucking on pealing lead paint chips and on window blinds which lead was added to plastic to prevent them from cracking. The lead dust issue was in reference to re-construction sites and ship building. Lead paint was banned in the 1970s and lead in window blinds was banned in the 1980s. If you are going to get into people lead poisoning you may like to know that lead has to oxidize or form some other compound for it to be absorbed into the human body. Modern paint covering over lead paint, called encapsulation in older homes is an easy way to solve that problem. Your argument sounds like the quote: "If we can only save one animal or one human life, then it is all worth banning this or that." Well then, go ban automobiles and wind turbines. They all kill far more than what you are talking about now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  20. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I am not and have not, made any statement about whether or not banning lead is worth it or not. YOU are the one doing that. My responses are only to the OP's question.....

    Is lead toxicity from hunting ammo real?


    ...and the answer is, it is.

     
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  21. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I don't know why people keep making up or passing on bad information such as the above statement, but yes, SWALLOWED LEAD FRAGMENTS CAN AND DO PASS THE BLOOD-TISSUE BARRIER AND CAN LEAD TO LEAD TOXICITY.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30095594/

    Swallowing lead pellets is bad for animals. PEOPLE ARE ANIMALS. People swallowing lead pellets can get lead poisoning. There are documented case studies too back this up.

    I don't get how people keep saying stuff isn't backed up by science studies when it is explicitly backed up by science and studies.

    From the CDC...
    https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/leadtoxicity/exposure_routes.html

    Lead exposure in the general population (including children) occurs primarily through ingestion, making it the route that most commonly leads to elevated BLLs. This includes swallowing a foreign body containing lead (i.e., jewelry, etc.).

    Is this so hard to understand?

    Repeated moving of the goal posts by naysayers is absolutely bewildering.
     
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  22. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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  23. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    Having strong but ignorant opinions is no substitute for facts. Your voluble ignorance does not change facts. And passing fake information to stoke fears about lead is deplorable. Whether it’s that you don’t understand what you’ve read of that you do and don’t care is immaterial. Lead fragments cannot be digested period. Providing reference to other types of lead does not change that.
     
  24. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    Again, whether you are cherry picking of a purpose or simply don’t understand what you are reading, the lead ingestion and digestion referred to by CDC and repeated by Mayo is not of lead fragments but of lead compounds and oxides. Lead fragments swallowed cannot be digested.
     
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  25. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Where are these studies you claim to exist? Where are your facts? Why do people and animals that eat lead pellets or lead object get lead poisoning? You keep posting with no support of your claims. There have been numerous studies and references posted so far that are the exact opposite of what you are claiming. So please, share with us these studies so we can see these facts that you claim to exist.
     
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