Is lead toxicity from hunting ammo real?

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Kingcreek, Apr 9, 2021.

  1. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    Again, since you can’t be bothered to read the very sources you have referenced which themselves assert the point I have been making, this is not a discussion worth having. The CDC information to which you refer explains it. If you can’t be bothered to read or understand that...
     
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  2. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    So you really can't find an actual reference to support your claim? Let see some quotes. You are the one who is making claims to "studies" and what not, yet haven't produced a single one.
     
  3. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    I have now repeatedly referred you to the sources you yourself have referred to. Read the actual CDC guidance instead of cherry-picking a phrase that you think supports the false statement you have made.
     
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  4. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    Post #35 has proof that in Wisconsin woodcock, elevated lead toxicity in mature woodcock bones is more likely caused by Precambrian lead which is found naturally in the soil.

    Follow this logic: Bugs eat soil containing Precambrian lead. Woodcock eats bugs. Precambrian lead concentrates in woodcock bones.

    Paint me a scenario where woodcock eat lead shot. But before you do, understand that I know the preferred habitat of woodcock. It ain’t the trap range.
     
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  5. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    Fish and game biologists and others have long known that raptors and vultures are dying of lead poison: No doubt about that.

    Lead poisoning cause of death for bald eagle in Glacier Park (greatfallstribune.com)

    Bald eagles dying from lead found in North Carolina hunters' bullets at in Camden County, experts say - ABC7 New York (abc7ny.com)

    Avian Haven says three bald eagles have died from lead poisoning in past week | WGME

    Eagles at risk of lead poisoning after eating lead-filled deer carcasses (wsaw.com)

    BTW: i've had lead poisoning twice from breathing lead dust while burning small arms ammunition.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  6. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Did you read that article you posted in post #35? If nuttin' else, go back and read the last sentence. Bugs are are relatively minuscule part of a woodcocks diet. They primarily feed on earthworms.
     
  7. 1942bull
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    1942bull Contributing Member

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    I recently read that scavengers that eat dead animals remains are showing increased incidence of lead poisoning because the often ingest lead bullets and pellets as the eat the remains. One thing that will surely lead to lead poisoning is eating lead.
     
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  8. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

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    I don’t have dog in this fight, but what exactly do you think earthworms eat? Just search on “do earthworms absorb lead” and you will find scientific articles discussing the absorption of lead from soil by earthworms and actually recommending the use of earthworms to remediate contaminated soil. So your “gotcha” kind of got you.
     
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  9. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

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    Not one of those articles provides any evidence that the birds are getting lead poisoning from bullets or shot. They state that the birds have lead poisoning, which I will assume is true, but not one of the articles indicates that they actually found any lead fragments in the birds digestive tract.

    It’s possible the birds got lead poisoning from bullets, but there is no evidence offered to support their assertions.
     
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  10. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    See post #32
     
  11. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    I addressed the last sentence of the article excerpt in post #35 in post #35. And the article excerpt was from your linked study in your post #34.

    Woodcock eat bugs and worms which eat soil containing Precambrian lead according to the study you linked.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  12. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    "About half of eagles that are admitted still have fragments of lead bullets in their stomachs."

    3 Bald Eagles Found Hurt, Lead-Poisoned in Virginia – NBC4 Washington (nbcwashington.com)

    "Avian Haven said the level of lead in the eagle's blood was off the scale of their screening instrument. X-rays showed multiple lead shot pellets in her GI tract."

    Bald eagle with lead poisoning found on Oar Island, Maine | wtsp.com


    "Routine radiographs show that many of these eagles are exposed to the highly toxic metal by ingesting lead shotgun pellets or bullet fragments. The eagles ingest these fragments while scavenging animals that have been shot but not recovered by hunters, or by feeding on the entrails of game animals, like deer, which have been harvested and “field dressed.”"

    Wildlife Center Admits Lead-Poisoned Bald Eagle From Chesapeake | The Wildlife Center of Virginia
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  13. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Here's the sentence I was referring to, doesn't look like it's been "dismantled".

    .....kinda refutes what you have been trying to convince us of. Thank you very much!

    I'm boxed in? You are using arguments that dismiss your adamant claims to try and back up your claims and I'm the one boxed in? No, read the evidence. Use science and not your emotions and political views. No DNR/F&G in any state has a conspiratory agenda, that includes lead toxicity in an attempt to take away any hunting privileges. Their concern is the health of the wildlife and those of us that hunt it.Just 'cause you don't like the facts, doesn't make them invalid. Again, how much this affects us and wildlife is subjective, but the facts that it is happening, is objective.
     
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  14. Zerodefect

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    How many biologist reports can be trusted? They've come up with all kinds of sensational crap over the years.

    Can elemental lead be digested in a stomach? Is there a credible source for this?

    When people say ''lead poisoning'' it's 100% leaded compound and chemicals so far. Not plain old lead metal. It's a good example of how simple terminology misleads people. Everyone says ''lead'', but it's leaded paint, leaded gas, leaded chemicals. Not wheel weights.

    Although, that being said. All of my hunting ammo is copper, brass, steel. Not lead.

    Another weird note, if a surgeon can't remove a bullet easily from your chest......they leave it in.
    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-surgeons-sometimes-leave-a-bullet-inside-the-body-when-a-person-is-shot
     
  15. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Look, the bottom line is that we know birds ingest lead pellets in the field. We know that from controlled tests in the lab, that birds fed lead pellets get lead poisoning. It would be blatantly stupid to believe that birds in the field eating lead pellets won't get led poisoning. Plenty of birds taken from the field that ate lead pellets have been shown to have lead poisoning, but via symptoms and through tissue analysis.

    Are there potentially other sources for lead as well? Sure. That doesn't negate the fact that consumption of lead pellets can cause lead poisoning.

    So is lead toxicity from hunting ammo real as per the OP's query? How could it not be?

    Even humans get elevated lead levels from eating meat from animals shot with lead bullets.
    https://www.outdoorlife.com/is-game-meat-shot-with-lead-safe-to-eat/

    The counter argument to the CDC's warning was that the level of lead, on average, did not reach the level of toxicity. This is huge on many levels of consideration. One, it is recognized by folks on both sides of the argument that consuming meat with lead fragments resulted in elevated lead levels. Nobody is claiming that is can't happen.

    The ironic thing is that the CDC was mostly issued their warning for pregnant women and children under 6, because for developing kids fetuses and kids, the risk is much higher even at lower levels.

    You have a particular issue with the biologists doing the studies or are you making a gross generalization like the left saying we can't be trusted with guns because there are a lot of gun nuts out there?

    Well, it has been demonstrated, but the testing was done by biologists and you have discounted the claims of biologists. Do you trust medical doctors, or do you just consider them to be glorified biologists with a narrow field of study?
    https://journals.lww.com/pec-online/Abstract/2019/05000/Lead_Pellet_Ingestion_in_3_Children__Another.15.aspx
     
  16. anothernewb

    anothernewb Member

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    Eagles migrate. many winter into Mexico. as has been said, they could be picking it up there as well. But the real item that's missing from all the arguments is actual science. Even back when the waterfowl lead ban came into effect - I can't remember any specific series of autopsy reports which could pinpoint lead. There are many other chemical hazards far easier to propagate through a species which will have a similar detrimental effect on biology as lead does.

    IIRC, the biggest decline in eagles goes back to DDT. and the extreme over use of it. (which is it's own set of arguments and pitfalls which is outside this discussion) The issue with the eggshells did cause a measurable decline.

    Living in MN. there's also a current war here on against lead fishing tackle - and they're using the same migratory bird argument - because it worked the last time. I am leaning towards it being simply more inane attacks - because it's been widely known that the heavy metals in fish have long come from industrial water pollution, and the fish populations - are still there.
    Now tinfoil hat aside - if the end goal is limiting ammo since limiting firearms has gone so badly. then the tactic does have basis in historical success.
     
  17. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    Many state game commissions and raptor sanctuaries do autopsies on eagles They check the lead levels of dead and sick eagles. They also do chelation therapy to remove the lead. Eagles are dying of lead poisoning in many states.

    Contrary to conspiracy theories bandied about on hunting boards, there is no end goal of limiting firearms by falsely claiming that raptors and vultures are dying from lead poisoning.

    Several years ago the last lead smelting plant in the US was closed. People on gun boards went nuts, claiming at the government was planning to outlaw lead.
     
  18. hunt127588

    hunt127588 Member

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    Dove can be hunted with lead in TN. Waterfowl must use non-toxic shot per the regs.
     
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  19. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    I’ve been trying to convince you, backed up by studies you posted that lead in woodcock bones can come from two sources (as per the isotopic analysis in your linked study)

    1. Precambrian lead, which is naturally occurring in Wisconsin soil according to your linked study. Bugs and worms eat soil and Precambrian lead, woodcock eats said bugs and worms. Lead concentrates in adult woodcock bones. So what?

    2. Lead shot, for which your linked study found no evidence of woodcock eating lead shot. None in the digestive tract. No lead shot. None.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  20. BJung

    BJung Member

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    When I was young, my brother's friend invited us over for dinner to have some ducks they shot. I found lead pellets in the meat and their reply was, "oh, we missed those but don't worry about it.. just spit it our or if you ingest one you'll poop it out later". I never ate duck after that since I didn't want to look for the lead pellets like some people don't like looking for fish bones. Here we are today and I haven't heard of any problem with that family regarding lead poisoning. Maybe the old duck hunters can chime in?
     
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  21. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    You have to understand that the vast majority of people who experience any sort of lead toxicity issues (regardless of the cause) will go undiagnosed, with the possible exception of children or extremely acute cases. In most people, low levels of exposure will accumulate over years. In adult humans, the changes are so slow or incremental of often go unnoticed in terms of cause and effect as the person continually adjusts to a new norm. This is partially because the symptoms are largely non-diagnostic. For example, say you have come into your 50s and are hypertensive and and chronic low level joint paint, particularly in your feet, knees, hips, and/or shoulders. Would think you think you had lead poisoning or would you think you are just getting old? What about that incremental hearing loss? Too much rock-n-roll as a young person or lead poisoning? Reduced sperm count? Again, age-related or lead-related...assuming you even had it tested as this is something you would not actually recognize empirically yourself. Do you find yourself getting more forgetful? Maybe you can no longer remember pi carried out to 25 places like you could back in high school. Do you chalk that up to age again, or lead poisoning? Maybe you are 70 years old with notable mental detractions. Old people may deteriorate mentally for a number of reasons and it is considered rather normal, right? Or, is it due to lead? How about headaches? Everybody gets those. Ever thought they might be due to lead? Fatigue...now that you are in your 50s, do you find that you just don't have the same drive and stamina that you had 20 years ago? Must just be that you have gotten older and are "slowing down," right? Maybe you are slowing down because of lead toxiity.

    Maybe you start feeding your little children lead tainted meat and they grow into "normal" adults and you say to yourself, "See, eating meat with lead in it didn't negatively impact my children" only your kids have IQs around 95 instead of 125 that they would have had if they hadn't had the lead exposure. So sure, they are still perfectly functional in society, but they never achieved their actual potential.

    Maybe your wife had a couple of miscarriages when y'all were trying to have kids. What are the chances you got her tested for lead toxicity? Unless your wife worked in certain industries or that there were already documented cases of lead issues in your family or documented for your community (e.g., Flint, MI), lead is probably going to be one of the last things doctors look for as being the cause of the problem.

    Maybe your wife gave birth to a significantly mentally underdeveloped child and at that point y'all figure you probably shouldn't have any more children and never paid the money for a tox screen or genetic testing to determine the actual cause. How would you know it was lead?

    Do you have gut troubles? Do you maybe sometimes have an upset stomach that you simply treat with OTC products, maybe more so than when you were younger? How about constipation? We all know older folks are more prone to this, but do we really ask ourselves why? Both of these are symptoms of increased lead levels.

    The point here is that unless you have have significant changes in your health over a very short period of time as from acute poisoning, there is a very good chance that you will overlook or the doctors will overlook these issues as being caused by lead toxicity over a long period of time.
     
  22. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Then maybe you should make it simpler for yourself. No where have I said anything about there not being other sources for lead ingestion by wildlife. I understand that and did long before this thread. If you read the posted articles you would have seen there is a legitimate reason no lead shot is found in the gizzards of Woodcock. It is because they don't have one. Now I'll use your little snide remark..(LOL :)). No gizzard. None. No crop either. Because of this and the rest of their digestive system, makes so that lead pellets pass thru their system quickly and are not retained like with birds that have crops and gizzards. Again, knowledge of what you are arguing about is key.
     
  23. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    But is that from sucking on a lead slug, or from ingesting or being exposed to other sources of lead or leaded chemicals.

    What I'd like to see is the chemistry of stomach acid breaking down elemental lead metal. And then maybe the ability of intestines to absorb such. Not paint, not tap water from Michigan, not gasoline.

    And that test needs to be done by someone who doesn't faint every time someone says ''lead''. Biologists just aren't trustworthy scientists anymore. Anything they come up with, has to be demonstrated and fully vetted by other reputable scientists. Or it's worthless.

    An article about retarded kids in Flint Michigan that were eating crayons, does not make me want to blame Crayola.

    Mercury is bad stuff to, but you can handle it safely. We used to use it as a laxative.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  24. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I read one study

    Ground-Water Contamination from Lead Shot at Prime Hook National Wildlife Refuge, Sussex County, Delaware


    https://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/wri02-4282/

    https://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/wri02-4282/wri02-4282.pdf

    U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY
    Water-Resources Investigations Report 02-4282

    And was surprised to learn from the report that lead shot is far from pure lead. There are lots of other chemicals that leach out into the ground water. And of course, if you eat that lead, those other chemicals are in you.

    Sections from the report:

    A preliminary assessment by a USFWS contractor concluded that lead shotgun pellets from the trap shooting range had accumulated on the refuge property in an area of about 22 acres downrange from the club (Crowley and Richardson, 2001). The highest density of pellets on the refuge was concentrated in a zone of approximately 26,200 ft2 (square feet) immediately adjacent to the club property and directly down range from the trap houses. Investigators counted as many as 57,868 lead pellets per square foot in the center of this high-density area, which is referred to as the “drop zone”.

    The mobility of lead depends upon the metal’s corrosion or passivation behavior in each geochemical environment. The oxidation of metallic lead is rapid under normal environmental conditions, but the oxidized lead reacts readily with other species to form insoluble precipitates that coat and passivate the surface of the metal. Available literature on environmental lead commonly cites examples such as lead bullets found on Revolutionary War or Civil War battlefields that have been well-preserved under an oxide or carbonate coating for sometimes hundreds of years (Rimstidt and Craig, 2000). The mobility of lead, however, is controlled by processes that may override the passivation. Low pH, in particular, is suspected of being a major agent in the increased solubility of the lead carbonate hydrocerrusite.

    Because of acid rain and low pH conditions in the wetland, the lead dissolved and infiltrated into the ground water. The metal is being transported down gradient along shallow flowpaths, and discharging into an unnamed tributary of Primehook Creek. Lead concentrations in the ground water near a discharge zone into the unnamed tributary range from 10 to 1,000 times above natural background levels.
     
  25. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    Ah, it's not just "old duck hunters" that have bitten down on, and have probably swallowed a few lead pellets or lead bullet fragments in their lives. I'm "old" myself, and I haven't hunted ducks or geese since lead shot was banned for hunting migratory water fowl, but I've bitten down on, and probably even swallowed a few lead pellets left in pheasants and grouse in my time. Not only that, but I've written before how I bit down on a bullet fragment in a plate of venison stew a few years back.
    I suspect everyone in my hunting family has had lead in their mouth, and even swallowed some of it a time or two. But I don't know of any of them ever suffering from lead poisoning. Mostly, like me they worry about breaking a tooth from not finding all of the lead pellets in a dead pheasant or cottontail rabbit.
    Note: I'm not arguing one way or the other about birds of prey dying from lead poisoning because they ingested (or didn't ingest) lead pellets or lead bullet fragments. It could happen I suppose - just because everyone in my hunting family has probably had lead in their mouth a time or two doesn't mean lead ingestion couldn't kill a bird. I don't know of a single person in my family that has a craw either.:D
    BTW, I've written before about how one of my brother-in-laws was accidentally shot in the belly with a .25 ACP 18 or 20 years back. The bullet fragmented, and it showed up on the x-rays (which my brother-in-law still has) like a bunch of little flecks of black pepper in his stomach.
    All they did at the hospital was patch my brother-in-law up and send him home. He must have "passed" all of those bullet fragments because they x-rayed him again (before giving him an MRI) last summer, and the "pepper" was all gone. He's been struggling with some bleeding in his brain for almost a year now. But that came from falling down and bumping his head - not from getting shot in the belly with a .25ACP 20 years ago.;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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